Campfire: Monday, March 4

Doc S.

Relevant: The All-Silo Mobile Marketplace: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/vrm/2013/03/03/the...

Elliot N.

for doc sitting next to me

Elliot N.

http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/persona/

Elliot N.

campfire for link sharing! wheeee

Rollie C.

copyright, like most politics, creates strange bedfellows

Judi C.

I use persona, love firefox and moz development directions

Elliot N.

https://ting.com/blog/ting-implements-mozilla-p...

Doc S.

Maybe I should take what I wrote in 2011 about North Carolina and swap in "Georgia." http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2011/05/17/kee...

Doc S.

Hey, Britt. Are you here in the flesh?

Britt B.

Sure enough. With Ankit.

Doc S.

What's the name of the Thomasville fiber company?

Doc S.

Yay Vinnie and Frank. Great to see and hear you again!

Elliot N.

+1 to vinnie and frank

Margie R.

http://new.livestream.com/internetsociety/f2c

Doc S.

Thanks, Chris. The Georgia fiber company is CNS: http://www.cns-internet.com/Content/Default/7/4...

Doc S.

But I can't find anything there about speeds. Anybody got a link to that?

Ankit K.

Is there a twitter hashtag?

Doc S.

The chilling effects are potentially huge. Six strikes is about that too: http://www.chillingeffects.org/weather.cgi?Weat...

Judi C.

Twitter: #F2C or #F2C13

Doc S.

Photographers in the audience would like a spotlight on the speaker. Possible?

shep

it is awfully dark on the stage, can the lights on the stage be turned up?

Judi C.

you don't like the "flashlight from above" look?

Frank P.

Who breaks a butterfly... Manning show trial an example too

shep

now the projected slide is so bright compared to the darkness of the stage it hurts to look at it

Christopher M.

Doc: They have an older network and are still doing asymm services: http://www.cns-internet.com/Content/Default/7/4...

Margie R.

Darcy soft-spoken. can the mic be adjusted? (My hard-of-hearing friend can't hear hee, even with the sound turned up.)

Doc S.

I see: 22/3Mbps. No bragging rights there. I'm getting 50/5 from Time Warner in NYC. Still, we need their example.

David I.

I have asked the Webcast folks to turn up the sound!

Christopher M.

Doc: As we have been discussing, the nominal speed is one thing. I'll put their 22/3 up against my 27/4 from Comcast.

Doc S.

Chris, are there any other now at-risk local broadband efforts in Georgia?

Judi C.

she doesn't seem to be using the podium mic (moving away doesn't change the volume). Yes, she's quiet.

Doc S.

That story about property taxes is excellent fodder.

Christopher M.

The bill now exempts cities with muni electrics, so most existing muni providers seem to be exempt. Would stop new efforts, harm digital divide amelioration in Atlanta, other problems.

Doc S.

I believe that last shot is of the Woolworth's counter in Greensboro. I lived there, not long after that. It was huge.

Look at these 5 protest items map for fighting in Georgia. Is there a chance of that?

Christopher M.

The legislation in Georgia is not a foregone conclusion, we have very good chance to stop it. We stopped it last year. Need more businesses to step up and demand the Leg not take this decision away from locals

We have power. Even if we do not achieve our goals, we create ripples and may help the next attempt for change to succeed.

It is important not to be afraid to fail. Mother Jones is my hero in this regard.

Doc S.

This is true. I didn't even know the case was going forward. I thought it had blown over when JSTOR backed off.

Margie R.

"When there's a problem, you shouldn't get angry with the gears. You should fix the machine." -Aaron Swartz

Christopher M.

Shared joy is magnified, shared pain is lessened.

Harold F.

I see Chris M reads Spider Robinson.

Christopher S.

Just got here... who was talking just now...?

Doc S.

"Don't sit on the stairs" sounds like a song title.

Margie R.

Darcy Burner

Doc S.

Dan has broken ground while so many others have broken wind.

Judi C.

http://freedom-to-connect.net/speakers.html#burner

Christopher M.

Harold: Indeed, I do like Spider - but wasn't sure if he authored it originally so didn't attribute

Joe P.

lets not confuse FB with the internet

Frank P.

+1 joe

Christopher S.

Murphy's law... if all is going well, duck: there's going to be an explosion soon...

Frank P.

Dan needs a powerpoint ( g

Harold F.

Joe, true -- but was example.

Can find examples for many of the most popular websites and platforms.

Aleecia

A piece of good news: the Netherlands Telecomm law of 2012, which came into force 1 Jan 2013, includes network neutrality. See http://merlin.obs.coe.int/iris/2012/7/article32... for a summary in English.

Harold F.

If you have 1 billion people using a particular website or feature, we ought to care when it misbehaves.

Christopher S.

Was that "feudal" set-up, or "futile" set-up?

Joe P.

Harold, the mistake is expecting FB to behave well.

Harold F.

Agree.

Christopher S.

Everything is always tap-able. Issue is how hard we want to make it?

Doc S.

http://customercommons.org is working with the Cyberlaw Clinic at Berkman on new terms and policies that *we* can assert in engagements on the Net. Nothing public yet, but it'll be cool once it's downstream.

Christopher S.

You should get a good lawyer to help you with that.

Harold F.

Joe P, q is when can I or can't I trust that company means what it says?

Josh L.

x

Harold F.

If answer if "never," we have serious loss of efficiency.

Christopher S.

Harold, you can never trust them. Trust is a human capacity/characteristic. Not a corporate one

Joe P.

They may mean it today.

Harold F.

"Trust" in this case is "expect."

Josh L.

Big question for me is how much we should invest in routing around problems - like browser extensions and VPNs - vs. investing in structural change

Doc S.

Lots of people don't update their software because they're afraid they're exposed i the process.

Joe P.

but tomorrow is different

Harold F.

I can expect certain behavior, based on different incentives.

Christopher S.

Well, there you go. The issue is, to me, how much it costs us to pretend we can trust non-human entities (corporations)

Jane C.

The speakers slides are difficult to read ... can the screen be made bigger. We can all see campfire on our laptops/screens ... the stage screens need to be reversed

Ankit K.

Some of the answers to these are to educate users past the point where they think technology is "magic". Once they start to understand how the car works, they start to maintain the oil levels.

Christopher S.

That's just because we are all getting old and have bad eyes.

Harold F.

Chris S. I can trust certain entities to behave in particular ways based on law. e.g., lemon laws to establish rules for used car sales.

Aleecia

Unfortunately most users don't want to understand how the car works, let alone change their own oil -- same for tech

Frank P.

If a felon falls in the forest...

Christopher S.

Ankit: or, maybe the answer is to have it work like magic, but white magic rather than black.

Margie R.

What is "TOR?"

Aleecia

Asking user education to solve all problems is not terribly practical. It's a great idea, but I do not think it will ever be sufficient.

Christopher S.

Right. But that's not "trust" as I understand the term. Trusting people is a peculiarly social event. Having expectations about behavior -- everything even partially sentient does that.

Harold F.

Allow me to try again. I rely on my basic telephone to operate in a particular way. If this assumption is no longer valid, that changes a lot of behavior.

Judi C.

TOR = The Onion Router. Where's Wendy S? Need a link

Doc S.

Browser prophylactics to control tracking: http://abine.com/ http://www.mozilla.org/en-US/collusion/ http://disconnect.me/ http://ghostery.com/ http://privacyscore.com/ http://www.privowny.com/

Joe P.

POTS is still regulated, no?

Aleecia

https://www.torproject.org

Christopher S.

Joe: barely, but who cares?

Judi C.

www.torproject.org/ hah

thanks Aleecica

Christopher S.

Re: poisoning data: when my kids were young I told them over and over again that they have no obligation to tell the truth to a computer and that they should generally not do so.

Joe P.

Just trying to manage Harolds expectations.

Josh G.

I put a fake name and gender on my CVS card, and now I get tampon coupons when I check out

Doc S.

There are people who on purpose go into stores and buy nothing but whisky and diapers. One angle:http://www.funnystrange.net/2007/10/nope-...

Aleecia

Collusion is very pretty, and a good way to work on that user education piece.

Eric N.

Josh, wouldn't you rather get coupons that are useful?

Ankit K.

More fundamentally, I would say that the "users" will be in the next generation when they learn how to code and build things. If more students were required some intro engineering courses as part of a curriculum, they would be more aware of the issues.

Christopher S.

I randomly choose to either give my number or not to skew what records they have...

Frank P.

Http://www.torproject.com

Josh G.

Ha, yeah. Next time I'll go with fake name, right gender ;)

Benjamin C.

I just use the local area code and 867-5309.

David I.

"Private Browsing" is easy! Very few disadvantages.

Judi C.

"Apple's control-freakery" +1. Trying to get a friend's iPhone to do something common is amazingly difficult.

Christopher S.

What? You don't trust Mark Zuckerberg?

Elliot N.

I am going to give dan a personalized discount code for his students!

Judi C.

I'm still hoping for progress on the freedom boxes

Aleecia

Extra credit for your own domain name: great idea. I should use that.

Elliot N.

what a great idea of his

Doc S.

The leading edge for your own space on the Net: http://personal-clouds.org/wiki/ Also read back in time through what Phil Windley is writing and hacking: http://windley.com

Joe P.

To paraphrase Eben Moglen-- FB biz model is SPYING!

Christopher S.

I had to pay a bit more than I had hoped for "chrissavage.com." Pity the poor kids named "bill jones" or "steve smith"

Elliot N.

Christopher Savage: nicknames!

shep

he doesn't mean "Linux", he means several Linux-based distros (such as Ubuntu, which he did mention).

Josh L.

You could argue that one of the reasons why smartphones have taken off since 2007, along with Facebook, is *because* they are closed systems. They work smoothly and for the most part they're easy to use (= you don't have to be a sysadmin to use them). I don't think it's practical to ask the millions who've been introduced to mobile computing and the Web through iPhones to get an Android, root it, and install a new ROM.

Eric N.

my name as a .com is taken, even though it's pretty uncommon...

Christopher S.

A wise old colleague of mine said once that "the secret to success in life in making Plan B work."

Frank P.

"Goodness" as a characteristic of systems products and networks

Christopher S.

And, good luck with speaker tech...

Harold F.

Am not sure it is hypocritical to participate in controlled platforms, as long as also maintain access to and use open platforms.

Doc S.

Josh, good point. But remember that Android to some degree was an open horizontal move against Apple's closed vertical one.

Christopher S.

A bit more Ben Affleck, actually... <g>

Harold F.

No one tell Chris M the truth!

Christopher S.

Actually, Harold, he looks a lot like you...

Not quite as dapper, of course, but still...

Harold F.

So I look like George Clooney?

Christopher S.

re: what I was saying earlier about "trusting" non-human entities

Judi C.

from here you do

Christopher S.

Yeah, but "here" is 2000 miles away!

Mary Beth H.

I'm afraid not, Harold. You look like yourself

Christopher S.

Arguing that Internet access should be a utility. Good luck with getting that done..

Judi C.

and the problem with 2000 miles away, seeing George C at F2C?

Elliot N.

Internet as utility can be done

Elliot N.

where it is done it is mostly done well

Christopher S.

Judi: Dream on, dream on, dream until your dream comes true...

Elliot N.

and it can be done by private companies as well

Michael W.

And there are too few decent restaurants downtown

Elliot N.

can be. not often done, but can be, and the reward is long term business success

Levi M.

I appreciate his use of "big" before "cable."

Doc S.

Get the lights on Chris.

Eric N.

utility regs at a federal level is virtually impossible in this political climate. local utility regs are more realistic, in some cases.

Levi M.

To differentiate

Christopher S.

So, which are the big corporations whose interests are NOT in line with the ones you like? If it takes a big company to fight in DC...

Eric N.

super bowl all over again

Doc S.

He'd like to shed some dark on the topic....

Joe P.

the FBI?

Michael W.

dont lean against anything!

Christopher S.

Subliminal message: even well-established technology (electric lights) can get SNAFU'd

Judi C.

wait, big companies are fighting someone in DC? When did that start?

Eric N.

have any community networks been bought by larger companies/incumbents?

Michael W.

dont lean!

Aleecia

muninetworks.org/communitymap

Doc S.

I like casting local control and self-determination as power reversal. Democratic. Republican, even.

Eric N.

but time warner cable tells me that people don't demand higher speeds!!

Christopher S.

Judi: They sometimes fight each OTHER. That's the inflection point that public interest folks should be alert to.

Doc S.

I've had both TWC and Comcast tell me that "nobody wants" higher speed upstream. "Ever heard of the cloud?" I asked TWC? "What's that," came the reply. "How about offsite backup?" I asked. "Why?" was the reply. Amazing. By contrast, a FiOS tech support guy told me "We could give you 100Mbps symmetrical tomorrow if we wanted to, and blow everybody away. But marketing won't let us."

Christopher S.

It's just saying that there are positive externalities to local fiber networks

Judi C.

Thx Chris, would love to explore this more

Christopher S.

Old AT&T got broken up, in part, because IBM was afraid of them.

Aleecia

I would love faster speeds, but I'd have to leave Sonic. No thanks.

Doc S.

Good point, Chris. Alas, there is nothing much today like the political arrangements and climate around telecom in 1983.

Christopher S.

Using fiber to scratch your own itch... there's got to be an xkcd about that...

Elliot N.

Aleecia: you can get faster speeds than sonic? from who? or is that sonic dsl (ie no fiber yet where you are)?

Ankit K.

Only the homebrew club (aka geeks) now what up/down means. Popular (approx) quote- "don't sell energy, sell cold beer"

Aleecia

Sonic DSL, yes.

Michael W.

all private telecoms are publicly subsidized.

Doc S.

Gun, martini, cigar, scowl.... what does this say about progress?

Judi C.

Sonic focuses on residential, which is an expensive venture for new networks if they want to reach outside of the telco network

Levi M.

Michael W., through taxes? How?

Doc S.

Am I wrong or is it getting hot (thermally) in here?

Levi M.

It is, Doc.

Ankit K.

Laws of physics is making it hotter up in the rafters

Christopher S.

If broadband is a utility like water or roads, why not use taxes? If it has high externalities, why would service-linked revenues be sufficient?

Michael W.

levi, through cost or below cost strret opeings, easements, pole attachments, and tax preferences

Christopher S.

Ankit, wherever you are, it will be "hot"... <g>

Doc S.

Nostalgic for Fiberfete. Just saying.

Levi M.

Not every pvt telecom gets those goodies:-)

Aleecia

No laws on our physics!

Michael W.

phew

Elliot N.

not enough discussion about the rise of municipal vs state/provincial and federal. it is a global phenomenon

David I.

When something goes wrong w a community network, you can find somebody to strangle!

Doc S.

I'm from New Jersey. You want some fuckin' fiber. Trust me. I've got friends.

Margie R.

same accent? egad.

Elliot N.

the amazing thing so far is that with network there are VERY few great examples at the large city level

Elliot N.

the true city-state

Christopher S.

Politics of that complex in US. Liberal folks in the US are suspicious of local and state assertions of rights/powers. But community networks are ur-liberal in underlying politics

Ankit K.

Bristol brought CGI (big consulting company for Fed gov) into their community with that network

Jane C.

Doc Searls - the island of Jersey (old Jersey) now has a gigabit to the home :-)

Christopher S.

No question that there are benefits to local fiber

Doc S.

Derek, et. al., is it possible to convince the GOP nationally that community broadband and freedom to connect generally are both better for business big and small — than continuing to protect these giant regulatory zoo animals?

Ankit K.

We called it "on-shoring" since CGI needed to lower the cost of development but couldnt outsource to India

Christopher S.

Attacking the "big guys" -- this sounds a lot like the 1890s. The common man will not be crucified on a cross of DSL

Levi M.

FCC attempts to protect open Internet have been perfunctory and congress refuses to act. We need a new first amendment-like federal law evolved for the modern "press"

Elliot N.

they may pay less but always remember that customer service has strong diseconomies of scale

Michael W.

Doc, in a word, no.

Eric N.

Levi, Congress hasn't failed to act. The House passed a resolution of disapproval after the Open Internet Order came out!

Christopher S.

Levi: Right, but that's not happening for a zillion years. Time for interstitial, vine-on-the-wall, water-and-ice-in-the-cracks type work

Yeah, Doc, good luck with that.

Levi M.

I believe it can happen if Americans demand it.

We need to educate people why they should demand it the same way "we" defeated SOPA

Joe P.

+1 Levi

Christopher S.

Levi: Americans will demand it when their life (in this space) sucks enough to care. What's actually happening is that the tech aspect of folks' lives is getting BETTER. It's just not getting AS BETTER as it could. Not disagreeing with you, exactly, just saying it might not be easy.

Josh G.

the leaks actually enhanced our national security...

Levi M.

If it were easy it would be done already

Eric N.

I strongly dislike any publicly elected rep who lost an election in his own party then runs as an independent.

Christopher S.

Someone should devote some serious think-tank time to the question of OPEN SOURCE SECURITY. Security measures that work either in spite of, or because of, their non-classified nature. Prime case: MAD

Eric N.

primary election*

Michael W.

Correct Josh. they caused the arab spring, and helped hasten the end of two wars.

Doc S.

This is why Eben Moglen told us we should have our own clouds. Using utility clouds like Amazon's puts your privates in somebody else's vice.

David I.

Amen Josh & Michael

Margie R.

are there open source payment processors?

Aleecia

bitcoin? :-)

Christopher S.

Why the focus on "clouds"? Storage is cheap cheap cheap. Local backups. Maybe multiple local backups.

Cash?

Levi M.

Gold

Judi C.

stripe? square?

Elliot N.

Margie Roswell: nope. payments are a very closed world. bit coin is all there is

Elliot N.

which actually is not bad. bit coin is settling in and actually may have some legs

Aleecia

So now we know that the US does assassinations, including of US citizens, and other than a few news articles... it's a gigantic shrug.

Margie R.

Elliot, so why "nope?" Sounds like "yup."

Aleecia

Bitcoin isn't a payment processor in the traditional sense.

Elliot N.

exactly. aleecia answered

David I.

Aleecia, I'm not shrugging.

Christopher S.

Weird story: I found John Cusak's iPhone on the ground during the first Obama inauguration. Guilted teenaged kids into NOT reading all his texts and just returned it.

Aleecia

David: I join you in not shrugging. What next?

Judi C.

wow, time and place

David I.

Aleecia, don't mistake the media's non-coverage with public apathy

Elliot N.

while I love this effort, I do not know that "secrecy is at an all-time high" is true

David I.

scuse me **for** public apathy

Christopher S.

The US government has always had a ... shall we say ... mean streak. That's not going to change. Query: are we better off with people mainly not knowing, and then being outraged? Or getting used to it?

Aleecia

David, a very fair point. But I'm not seeing much in the non-media either.

David I.

Maybe you're not following the right ppl on twitter?

Or not on the right mailing lists?

Elliot N.

recursive classification

Christopher S.

Warfare has changed. The folks who truly and legitimately count as "enemies" of the US are engaged in asymmetric warfare; they are non-state actors; and we don't really know how to stop them from doing BAD THINGS. What is the right policy response to that?

Aleecia

Could well be. I come to f2c to realize I am not one of the cool kids :)

Christopher S.

Not denying that if you give governments unaccountable power it will be abused. But the world in which we operate isn't the world of (say) the 1960s

David I.

Or maybe to figure out where the good info is?

Elliot N.

Aleecia: dont let david i make you feel uncool! :-)

Christopher S.

If we are in a world where David I is the arbiter of "cool," we have a lot bigger problems than I thought...

Aleecia

Or figure how to find another hour a day to read twitter and mailing lists...

David I.

Elliot, agreed. Aleecia stop me b4 I do it again.

David I.

Chris S, AGREED!!!

Aleecia

An interesting funding model from https://pressfreedomfoundation.org

Christopher S.

More re: Open Source Security: the notion that secrecy and centralization count as "secure" is essentially a feudal notion, which has been out-of-date at least since the invention of the airplane and maybe the cannon. But it plays to our deep evolved urges to retreat to a cave to get away from the thunderstorms and the bears. Security is being compromised by bad psychology...

Eric N.

Why switch the bundles? Why not just add bundles? Or, for that matter, just list everyone you can?

Christopher S.

Is that system (Muck-Rock?) anonymous? I.e., can I ask them to do a FOIA on something without my name being on it?

Unless, of course, you have a mole who is copying everything. Never forget HUMINT

Aleecia

"We are pleased to receive anonymous donations in the mail. Please makes checks and money orders payable to "Foundation for National Progress", and write "Freedom of the Press Foundation" in the memo field. "

Christopher S.

Like, say, Bradley Manning. It works both ways

Aleecia

While David I cannot respond: anyone who throws a conference with live music each time is, like it or not, actually pretty cool.

Christopher S.

Yeah. But many if not most of us are old enough here to have kids in their teens and 20s. We really have no idea what "cool" is...

Aleecia

(I'd argue there are multiple local "cool"s)

Frank P.

Anonymity is a crutch we need to throw away

Christopher S.

Aleecia: You are right, of course. But I worry about the graying of the net activist community

Doc S.

Welcome back, Frank and Vinny! Audience, dig how fast and well these guys play. They're awesome.

Christopher S.

Politics (including net and online freedom politics) makes strange bedfellows

Aleecia

It's a reasonable worry.

Harold F.

I was not dismayed.

Aleecia

I sense an April 1 opportunity

Doc S.

... the Institute for Astroturf Fertilization...

Michael W.

that's wisdomw broadly defined

Harold F.

Doc S. +1

Doc S.

I like "coin operated think tanks."

Michael W.

ca-ching

Elliot N.

both are great

Doc S.

"We keep astroturf green."

Elliot N.

....using your green

Aleecia

greenwashing

Judi C.

can the video team please increase the volume?

David I.

Catharine Rice is President of SEATOA, Southeastern Telecommunications Officers and Advisors.

Judi C.

video team, please? Some of the speakers are really hard to hear.

Mike G.

Hi folks.

Judi C.

Like Catharine

Aleecia

http://seatoa.org/

Harold F.

The problem is corps keep coming back and coming back. They triangulate and learn.

Lorelei K.

when I worked in Congress, we called these astro turf "experts" the Stepford Wonks

Eric N.

Harold, don't we expect that? Isn't the real problem that legislators don't adapt to those changes and like money?

Michael W.

ALEC has been outed, and is being replaced by new sub-rosa orgs. CMD has all the info.

Michael W.

they can only work in the dark.

Aleecia

http://alecexposed.org/

Darcy B.

Organizations like ALEC are inevitable so long as legislators at both the state and federal level have staffing levels woefully inadequate to the tasks they need to do. If they can't do in-house policy work, they'll take what they can from outside sources.

David I.

Art Pope: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Pope

Michael W.

agreed Darcy. Uniform laws and model laws has been around for 100 years. it is the secrecy that is the key. they are only effective in the dark.

Christopher M.

Darcy: +1! In MN, House leg has a staffer to answer email, very little policy help.

What happened to challenges to ALEC nonprofit status?

Michael W.

Republican use staffing money to employ unqualified people who are really just hacks.

Christopher S.

People who disagree with me have 1st Amendment rights to petition the government.

Michael W.

bad ALEC. very bad.

Darcy B.

It begs a question of why no competing populist alternative to ALEC has taken root.

Elliot N.

top membership in ALEC is "only" $25k. not crazy big money. are google or other Open Internet supporters members?

David I.

ALEC has been very successful at writing model legislation that benefits its members (but not the rest of us) and getting a friendly state legislator to introduce the bill -- in several states.

Eric N.

Darcy: collective action problem?

Mary Beth H.

Darcy +1

Christopher S.

The libertarian view is that as long as government can (and does) do things that affect economic activity (e.g., corporations' interests) there will be money spent trying to influence government. Full stop.

Frank P.

"Populist" has acquired a t party connotation. Can we say progressive?

Aleecia

Elliot, I do not see Google on the list they compiled here: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/ALEC_Non-P...

Michael W.

Darcy, PProgressive States Netwok and many others are the counterpart. But 'we' dont operate in the dark. The sinister aspect, the surpise attack, is key to ALEC's success.

Christopher S.

Folks on the right spend money and time trying to influence legislation. That's news?

I mean, come on, people.

Christopher M.

Darcy, they have a lot of money because they gain materially from these laws. It is an investment. Hard to fight that by people who just want good policy.

Joe P.

Amen Chris S.

Darcy B.

Michael, I love me some Progressive States Network, but the scope of their work isn't remotely comparable. It would seem possible to do model legislation in ways that are distributed and open, but it doesn't currently happen in any meaningful way.

Frank P.

18.5 million isn' t decimald

Michael W.

and so do 'we' Chris. We are not as mean about it, not as threatening.

David I.

http://followthemoney.org/database/search.phtml...

Joe P.

Need to hear a more strategic response

Frank P.

Decimal dust

Christopher M.

I hope I am not spoiling, but great report from these people on that anti-muni bill in North Carolina: http://www.followthemoney.org/press/ReportView....

Christopher S.

$44 million = about $0.15 per pop

David W.

Chris S. the news is how good they are at it

Frank P.

But it's not huge

Michael W.

you are right Darcy. I agree. I hold no brief for PSN.

Christopher S.

David W: Really? I would EXPECT THEM to be good at it. Folks on the left need to be good at it too.

Darcy B.

Christopher M, I get the ways the right has a virtuous cycle - invest -> get laws that increase your wealth -> use increased wealth to invest... but everyone in this room is also impacted by legislation, yet we've built no alternative for pursuing our interests.

Michael W.

Chris S. Like!

Christopher M.

Far easier for a minority that benefits greatly to push legislation than for the majority that gains a little.

Christopher S.

Wouldn't it be great if there were some online place where people could find each other and generate common action (at least common communications to legislators) around issues they care about?

Aleecia

When I have suggested model legislation, it has... not been well-received. Academics won't touch ("that's for activists") and no one else wants to be part of an open group, they want credit. Or secrecy. But not cooperation. But perhaps I am on the wrong twitter feeds :)

Christopher S.

Britt B, that's for you...

Margie R.

Is there any way the video at http://new.livestream.com/internetsociety/f2c can show the screen?

Christopher M.

It is easier to destroy a building than create one. An anti-crony-capitalism ALEC is not symmetrical to ALEC

David W.

Chris S. yup.

David I.

Aleecia, that's a problem! You need to throw expensive parties to soften them up. Oh wait, that takes money.

Michael W.

Darcy, good point. But we dont have an agenda that will support the same virtous cycle you describe. whech brings us back to dough. do re mi fa so la di dough.

Aleecia

I'm pretty sure that parties and vacations won't do it... There aren't incentives for people to work together.

Lorelei K.

tracking via committee is SUPER important next step, but we need it with maps and clickable visual data because people don't know their reps, but they know where they live...

Christopher S.

One thing we are learning from the ongoing Republican angst is the importance of PRIMARIES. So isn't the sweet spot of countering ALEC, if one is so inclined, the PRIMARIES of the CHAIRMEN of the relevant state legislative committees? How many votes have to change to put them at risk?

Joe P.

We need to EDUCATE broader constituencies, that is only antidote.

Darcy B.

Chris S - sticks are useful, but I wonder if carrots might not make more difference. It's HARD for legislators to understand complicated issues, but easy for them to move ALEC model legislation. What would it take to make it easy for legislators to do the right thing?

Christopher S.

Darcy B: have progressive model legislation as well. This could be wiki'd fairly easily, I'd think...

Michael W.

Darcy, sticks are clear. That's why they work.

Christopher M.

Having model legislation is good and we should have it. But having the capacity to talk to every legislator many times is far beyond our capacity.

Christopher S.

As Lyndon Johnson is reputed to have said, when you have them by the b***s, their hearts and minds will surely follow.

Christopher M.

We don't have their resources, we can't copy their strategy.

Michael W.

Chris... let's go with that idea. I have met resistence from our side, but continue to beleive it is worthwhile.

Christopher S.

Asymmetric warfare. Al Qaeda doesn't have US resources either, but look at how they have made us respond...

Joe P.

So why is tech biz community so passive with regard to stranglehold on broadband by incumbents?

Mary Beth H.

CenturyLink chairs the Portland Business Alliance - Portland's Chamber of Commerce so its tough to build support in the business community in Portland. But we'll keep trying.

Frank P.

Alec gathers re

Christopher M.

Joe P: very good question.

Michael W.

it will surface elsewhere... and already has.

Christopher S.

Tech is getting BETTER for people, and there's lots to be done that doesn't require gig-E-to-the-smartphone to work. If bandwidth is expensive, substitute storage (cheap) and processing power (cheaper) to get the same task done. Works very well for everything except live video.

Aleecia

Incidentally, note this as a sea change: five years ago, suggesting how to get better laws in a forum like this would have been shouted down because the Internet should be law-free. I do not hear that argument much any more as it comes clear there *are* laws, many of them quite bad. I think this change is non-trivial, and is not just happening here.

Frank P.

Alec strategizes with repubs... why not gather progressives and supprt them

Christopher S.

The herding cats problem on the left...

Christopher M.

The big chambers of commerce regularly sell out local businesses. Here is a place I would like to see local businesses organize IBA's - Indy Biz Alliances. We see it in some communities ... Salt Lake City, Asheville, etc. Often liberal cities.

Michael W.

We havent even talked about CWA yet. I'll just throw that out there and run away.

Christopher S.

IOW, picking up on my point re: substitution, the tech community looks at bad laws as damage and invents around it.

Strange bedfellows again.

Christopher M.

Michael W: Very important and hard point.

Ron S.

Cats need to be herded in a bottom up fashion and engaged, not just asked for donations to "our lobbyists"

Michael W.

An arugment that proved effective was to show how much money was being taken out of our community and sent to NYC.

Doc S.

Pull quote: "The tech community looks at bad laws as damage and invents around it." — C. Savage

Christopher M.

Frank P: It isn't a matter of collecting donations. Need people to pump millions in if we are to use the ALEC approach

Michael W.

from the civil rights community justice movement, quantify the amount of $$ being moved around, and where it is moved to.

Christopher S.

Think like an insurgent, not like an incumbent.

Earle, it's not all Republicans and all Lobbyists. Just you, personally. <g>

Michael W.

you got a problem with that Earl?

Christopher M.

I think a great hope for us it MAG-Net - the Media Action Grassroots. They are doing real organizing in communities with the people most screwed by the present system.

Darcy B.

Laws are part of the system in which we're operating. The tech community should pull apart and then start to fix the underlying system rather than frantically patching afterwards.

Michael W.

Earl, you are really a Dem. Come out.

Levi M.

SOPA proved that it is not a dem or repub issue

Josh G.

http://www.opensecrets.org/revolving/rev_summar...

Doc S.

The main problem on the left is that it tends to suck at making business cases. Great at policy, not-great at business. There is a huge opportunity to move in to the vacuum left by the right when it decided exclusively to back big business and abandon small and regional businesses. The Internet — broadband — is an essential-service tide that lifts all economic boats.

Christopher M.

It wasn't just Republicans in North Carolina killing muni bb - it was Republicans more concerned with what Art Pope thinks (he funded their campaigns) than anything else. They are not conservatives, they are corporatists.

Christopher S.

Darcy: but doing laws isn't what the tech community is good at. Easier for them to patch afterwards, than to fix in advance.

Michael W.

here her!

Frank P.

Mag-net.org

Michael W.

here here!

Joe P.

+1 Doc S.

Christopher M.

I wasn't clear enough: the problem is not Republicans, but a certain new kind of Republican that is dependent on crony-capitalists and the relevant orgs supporting that.

Christopher S.

Hear here? Hear hear? Her here?

Levi M.

And then they come back to govt again

Joe P.

Doc, thats why I call myself a free-market dem.

Lorelei K.

Tim is right, the amount of $ in the system today makes the party distinction irrelevant. its like the difference between bribery and hush money...the result is the same. Would be interesting to check out the 60-40 splits in PAC giving...pay the Dems enough to shut up, is all it takes.

Eric N.

Chris S: won't laws get smarter and become much more difficult to "invent around"?

Mitsuko H.

Lafayette's FiberLite was created, fought for, and created by socially conservative Republicans. It is a bipartisan economic issue.

Christopher M.

Lessig isn't here today, but his book is a must read on the corruption of modern gov and biz. Covers from both the left and the right. Book: Republic, Lost (Buy it at a local bookstore, not amazon).

Andrew M.

It's interesting to think how the dialog at this meeting would shift if the words "democrats" and "republicans" was banned.

Christopher S.

Eric N: If you had to bet on the average IQ of people writing laws (including lobbyists) and people doing tech, which way would you bet?

Levi M.

Wish I had a local bookstore!

Christopher M.

Levi: I hear you. Indiebound.org is good substitute.

Elliot N.

hollywood and democrats have been married forever

Doc S.

The party distinction becomes important when one side is busy making ad hominem arguments against the other based on party affiliation.

Our job here is to save Georgia. Is that clear?

Michael W.

Elliot, that's only legal in CA

Harold F.

Actually, it was both Republicans and Democrats on SOPA.

Eric N.

Chris S: well sure that's probably true but laws can be written exceedingly broadly and may not be technology-defined but rather action-defined ("no municipally owned networks" versus "no municipally owned cable systems")

Harold F.

We need some rollback efforts in other states. We can get these laws repealed.

Christopher S.

Catherine Rice says that big businesses are OPPOSED to limits on muni broadband because they need more bandwidth than they can otherwise get. If true, see my earlier comment: public interest opportunities arise when business interests conflict

Mitsuko H.

Historically, broadcasters were republicans and cable operators were democrats.

Christopher M.

Business people: help us talk to your networks. Or spread the word yourself. We can help you. We want to help you.

Harold F.

Success of some systems like Chattanooga is telling.

Mary Beth H.

The best way to predict the future is to invent it

Aleecia

So "our job here is to save Georgia" seems like a clear idea nearly everyone in the room could get behind. If the problem is we cannot find common ground (not sure I agree, but there's some truth there) here is one we likely can.

Doc S.

Another pull-quote "Public interest opportunities arise when business interests conflict."

Christopher M.

This issue does not exist in isolation. Some tech afraid to alienate partners in other ventures.

Michael W.

Harold is right.

Lorelei K.

check out this piece in the Atlantic today on cities: http://www.theatlanticcities.com/technology/201...

Doc S.

Step to a mike, Jim.

Christopher M.

Action in Georgia right now is in House Rules Committee.

If they ignore it for a few more days, IT DIES.

Aleecia

SB 313 in Georgia

Harold F.

I would add we can be preemptive in states that have not passed laws.

Mike G.

Yes, both Republicans and Democrats backed SOPA. And SOPA/PIPA were "sure things" in both the Democratically controlled Senate and the GOP-controlled House. But the lockstep between Dem politicians and Hollywood industrial interests is better- and longer-established.

Doc S.

Jim is in the house!

Mitsuko H.

Per Chris Mitchell, It's B 282. 313 was last year. In Georgia.

Darcy B.

The interesting division is probably far less about party designation and far more about crony capitalism vs. broader public interest. That crosses party lines -- for both good & bad.

Aleecia

Thank you!

Doc S.

"Business and opportunity are our big points.... economic development..."

Aleecia

(re: correction that 282 is this year)

Mitsuko H.

!! HB 282

Doc S.

http://legiscan.com/GA/bill/HB282/2013

Eric N.

Anyone have a source about the Senate muni-bb bill Tim mentioned?

Doc S.

http://www.muninetworks.org/content/community-l...

Michael W.

ou go Jim.

Doc S.

http://www.muninetworks.org/tags/tags/hb-282-2013

Michael W.

don't lean!

Doc S.

http://www.legis.ga.gov/legislation/en-US/displ...

Jeff S.

Link to Jim Baller's email list just mentioned?

Doc S.

http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Google-Polit...

http://baller.com/comm_broadband.html#barriers

Doc S.

That last list has other at-risk states that are queue'd up.

Joe P.

Oh its bad??? wow that's strong language . . .

Casey L.

Baller Herbst Law Group listserv: email me -- casey@baller.com

Christopher M.

It is VERY easy for ALEC to win when legislators don't hear from constiuents. One thing I learned from Harold: Let's start by making these people work for a living.

Daniel S.

"I am not going to unilaterally disarm." http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/180lxh/i_... I am Congressman Jim McGovern, sponsor of two constitutional amendments to overturn Citizens United and restore “We, the people.” Ask Me Anything!

David I.

Jim Baller, Joanne Hovis and Chris Mitchell are THE three leading community broadband experts in the USA.

Christopher M.

I'm surprised Doc hasn't pointed this out yet, but I have been trying to talk about Community INTERNET networks rather than broadband.

Michael W.

going out and meeting people, taking your vacation in their district, having a reception...all very powerful tools for building bridges...

Christopher M.

Michael W: Old school social networking!

Michael W.

communist sweden!

Christopher S.

Sweden? We're supposed to be like Sweden?

Mitsuko H.

Current federal law states: No State or local statute or regulation, or other State or local legal requirement, may prohibit or have the effect of prohibiting the ability of any entity to provide any interstate or intrastate telecommunications service. 47 USC 253(a). Can someone provide a quick update of why court challenges to anti-muni broadband bills have failed to conclude this federal law preempts anti-muni bb bills? Are muni's not "entities" under the law?

Eric N.

The Swedish have a seriously high quality of life

Elliot N.

sweden had stokab in the 90's though

Michael W.

sounds lime social engineering to me

Elliot N.

so they have been WAY WAY ahead on this issue for a long time

Harold F.

American exceptionalism, rah rah!

Christopher S.

States have independent existence under the Constitution. Court ruled that congress can't tell states what they have to do.

Eric N.

Mitsuko: yes you are correct

Mary Beth H.

Chris - MN has the most Swedes outside of Sweden!

Elliot N.

http://www.stokab.se/templates/startpress.aspx?...

Christopher M.

Mitsi: Nixon v. Missouri

Harold F.

Chris S., think you read the Nixon case too broadly.

Mitsuko H.

Chris M. What was the holding of that case?

Christopher M.

Mary Beth: Yes, it is why our lye-fish is the best in the nation. Or so I will never know from first hand experience

Eric N.

Community Internet Industry Association?

Christopher M.

Mitsi: Congress was not sufficiently clear to preempt state power to boss cities around.

Christopher S.

Think healthcare case: Congress can sort of bribe states (do X or we won't give you money), and Congress can do things (e.g., pay for network, e.g., BTOP). But directly telling states what to do is tougher.

Christopher M.

That was the holding

Christopher S.

Harold: correct me...

Christopher M.

Remember, I am not a lawyer, I am a George Clooney look-a-like...

Michael W.

1

Christopher S.

Chris M did. but... Have you read Section 253(a)? How effin' clear does congress need to be...

Harold F.

I would read Nixon to say that when Congress intends to preempt relationship between state and locality, it must be more specific.

Christopher M.

Christopher S: Hard to say with recent courts.

Eric N.

And the fact that Congress did not update Telecom Act to preempt localities indicates they did not intend to preempt those laws

Christopher S.

I'm wondering how Nixon survives the Obamacare case...

Christopher M.

Legislative history shows Congrss was approving of _at least_ muni electrics doing telecom.

Eric N.

but leg history doesn't come into play if there is no ambiguity in the law. SCOTUS didn't think there was ambiguity...

Earl C.

Actually, the problem is that munis are political subdivisions of states, so the states can limit their authority. Section 253 does preempt state laws banning munis from competing but the states can get around that by simply depriving municipalities of the authority to construct or operate networks.

Harold F.

Nixon held that language preventing state from preventing "any" entity from offering telecom did not demonstrate intent to preempt state regulating own self.

Harold F.

Chris S. Do not think Obamacare case applies.

Christopher S.

Harold F: you may be right; I'm not at all expert in this area of the law

Harold F.

Tell Jerry to hold mic closer to mouth!

Christopher S.

(I focus on legal stuff surrounding network architecture and interconnection... SSP)

Ron S.

Do you want to have an umbrella group to create followup action planning infrastructure? Please talk to me during lunch. @DrRon @NeighborSquad

Harold F.

Chris S. I generally look at whatever is bright and shiny.

Elliot N.

lol

Lorelei K.

we laugh, but the level of tech illiteracy across all the federal branches of govt is epic

Elliot N.

I2C help a tech day for congress critters last week. I will try and dig up a link

Lorelei K.

I went and the content was really good and their presence important, but there were very few staff in attendance, it seemed to me...

Margie R.

"Guys, and females..."

Elliot N.

http://i2coalition.com/today-is-internet-advoca...

Elliot N.

Lorelei Kelly: who was there? I will look for you on a break as I would love to hear more

Lorelei K.

The RSC is the only entity inside Congress that survived and prospered after the 1995 internal infrastructure purge of 1995, part of the Contract with America....and they did it through creative financing and borrowed staff

Mitsuko H.

For the legal geeks, re Nixon v Missouri 2004 From techjournal. Souter wrote the SC opinion joined by Rehnquist, O'Connor, Kennedy, Ginsburg and Breyer. Souter reasoned that "§253 would not work like a normal preemptive statute if it applied to a governmental unit. It would often accomplish nothing, it would treat States differently depending on the formal structures of their laws authorizing municipalities to function, and it would hold out no promise of a national consistency. We think it farfetched that Congress meant §253 to start down such a road in the absence of any clearer signal than the phrase ``ability of any entity.´´" Scalia and Thomas issued a concurrance. Only Stevens voted against.

Christopher S.

Copyrights are monopolies. Blunt tool.

"Intellectual Property" is a GOVERNMENT SUBSIDY PROGRAM. This may be a good program, but that's what it is...

Lorelei K.

The RSC is a support organization that is an ideological home for ultra conservatives in Congress...the majority of the GOP conference. There is no Dem equivalent, no explanation for that. Keep in mind that the RSC absorbed the large majority of Tea Party candidates in 2010...the "Tea Party Caucus" remained a communications shop that kept up the public antics, but the RSC moved the momentum into the institutional bloodstream

Michael W.

magna carta made clear that property is not a natural right. tell it to king john.

Earl C.

Right. See my earlier post. Congress went as far as we could by preempting States laws that prohibit any entity from offering telecom service. The reality is that Congress would have great difficulty reaching into State level organization and ordering States to authorize a political subdivision to be able to build networks. Also for the legal geeks -- note that section 253 doesn't apply to broadband under the current FCC mythology because it is limited to the offering of "telecommunications service"

Mitsuko H.

Which is amazing that the Court had such a high standard that Congress needs to be explicit when barring states from limiting powers of state-created municipalities, and yet, this court likely going to find that the most general grant of authority to the FCC is enough to give a federal agency authority to preempt municipal authority.

Bill O.

I don't know if I've ever heard a politician mention COPYLEFT. Anyone?

Christopher S.

It's the Supreme Court of THE UNITED STATES, not the Supreme Court of the states

Christopher S.

Meaning, even "conservatives" on the court are in favor of Congress, versus states, as a general matter.

Eric N.

Thanks for clarification Earl

Michael W.

they will disavow him if he is captured.

hey, jump in!

gettin dumped by the RSC is like being told you look like George Clooney

Doc S.

Derek on Reddit, i case nobody's posted it yet: http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/191ffd/hi...

Michael W.

cronyous? that a new word?

Earl C.

There is a Democratic Steering Committee in the Senate that this the counerpart to the RSC.

Mitsuko H.

DVDs and streaming-on-demand create enormous incentives for corporate held copyrights.

Michael W.

The DSC resembles the 3 stooges driving a firetruck

Doc S.

I'd like to know if Scott Brown was behind Derek on all this.

Christopher S.

Scott Brown = Senate? RSC = House, I think.

Earl C.

Love the 3 stooges analogy ... though I really can't comment from experience :)

Doc S.

Speaking of George Clooney...,http://thehill.com/capital-living/cover-stories...

Michael W.

Derek is like listening to a younger Larry Lessig, as Larry wen through the same evolution. Its OK Derek, its better out here.

Aleecia

"It seemed completely crazy" --- +1

Elliot N.

Ting allows unlocking of devices! the restriction is carrier-specific

Elliot N.

anyone have a spelling on the guy he just mentioned?

Michael W.

they will raise the threshold again... to 150,000 plus twenty years.

Elliot N.

got it. Sina Khanifar

Lorelei K.

the Senate has both a Dem and a Rep policy committee...the RSC is House Members only. the steering committees very different than the policy committees...there is no Dem equivalent of the RSC in the House

Doc S.

http://features.slashdot.org/story/13/02/20/165...

Michael W.

many of them in my desk

he said 'crazy'!!!

Christopher S.

Big picture: if we really want to encourage the development of NEW technology, why do we give so much protection to OLD technology?

Elliot N.

SO MANY phones are thrown away, but that is also a function of the subsidy

Christopher S.

Jailbreaking sounds like dope in CO and WA -- personal use only...

Eric N.

outlawing a discussion? sounds like a first amendment problem?

Christopher S.

We're all conspirators here.

Harold F.

Nobody remembers when Ed Felten was sued for discussing this stuff.

Ankit K.

one of my favorite phrases has always been "planned obsolescence"

Harold F.

Now that AT&T is providing 4G for GM, will the Copyright Office regulate the used car market?

Elliot N.

it IS between you and your carrier. the rule just gives the carrier the bullets

Aleecia

Ed is using his experience to discuss CFAA implications

Michael W.

what he is describing is a huge sector outside the US.

Christopher S.

You can buy prepaid phones pretty cheap.

Joe P.

Lessig - innovation is always an orphan.

Elliot N.

hmmmm I think I need to share some data with him on a break

Eric N.

Elliot N: Librarian of Congress rule necessarily involves the government because there's a criminal penalty, thus DOJ and FBI...

Elliot N.

@eric yes but enforcement is "carrier can" not "carrier must"

Elliot N.

so we (Ting) can explicitly allow it

Christopher S.

So the "property rights" of software companies trump my property right in my physical iPhone. Interesting prioritization. We live in the information age, I guess...

Eric N.

breach of contract enforcement is "carrier can" but enforcement of the criminal penalties is "government can" -- at least that's my understanding of it

Elliot N.

@eric it is like terms of service violations. they can be avoided by having fair TOS

Michael W.

BTW, info only, T-Mobile has very liberal unlocking policies.

Levi M.

How can Google's KC model serve as a realistic biz model for the rest of the US?

Christopher S.

Like, your car?

Levi: question is whether Google KC is a "biz model" in the sense of being sustainable...

Judi C.

Have you seen the TOS for some of the Onstar and related car systems? Whooboy.

Steve W.

Now playing: "Smoke gets in your eyes"

Now playing: "You'd be so nice to come home to"

Judi C.

Thanks Steve, it's all quiet here on the virtual side

Steve W.

Now playing: "Willow weep for me"

Greg R.

CBS Atlanta did story on HB282 that was very favorable to those of us in opposition.

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/21389545/propos...

Steve W.

Now playing: Alone again, naturally

Steve W.

Now playing: The girl from Ipanema

Steve W.

Now playing: Misty

Now playing: The Sound of Silence

Greg R.

White House supports unlocking of cellphones. https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/response/its-t...

Steve W.

Now playing: "Brazil"

Judi C.

Time Warner in Kansas City: "What does anyone want a Gig for?"

Jane C.

The CEO of PCCW (Hong Kong Telecom) says that the biggest complaint on his desk is "You sold me gig but I'm only getting 700 mBits ... what you going to do about it!"

Elliot N.

the "Open Access won't work" sadly confuses strategy with execution

Doc S.

We brought James to Santa Barbara to pitch the mayor and city council. He gave a great talk, and I wish we could have gone forward with a project; but there wasn't enough political courage by the elected officials, al of which lost in the next executions anyway.

Elliot N.

I always find that frustrating

Levi M.

FiOS is not revolutionizing connectivity in the way it could. They are delivering regular ol cable over FTTH. Comparable bandwidth at comparable prices to cable.

Christopher M.

Levi: +1

Doc S.

That was a slip. I meant elections.

Doc S.

FiOS isn't selling Internet well either. They're selling cable TV with Internet gravy. Dumb.

Christopher M.

Building real networks in rural America can be done without massive grants. We electrified the country with loans to coops, not giving endless free money to Wall Street.

Ankit K.

That information and pitch should have been kept as property of Santa Barbara and openly reused for the next set of elected officials.

Christopher M.

We have seen several rural electric coops building fiber - in Minnesota, Missouri, Georgia, and New Mexico (I think)

Christopher S.

Why are power companies so difficult to deal with on this issue?

Elliot N.

the perfect ftth has 5 competencies, each usually best done by a separate company; 1/ easements 2/building a fiber network 3/operating a fiber network 4/ providing wholesale access 5 providing "retail" access or servicing end users

Christopher M.

Chris S: I think it is largely culture. Entreprenuerialism is discouraged in electrics - probably rightfully so.

In many areas, better managing demand would allow us to build fewer big power plants - those avoided costs are greater than cost of building networks.

Bill St Arnaut has said it for years, but I didn't get it until recently.

Christopher S.

Why are electric cost/customer so high...

Elliot N.

capex per customer per.........?

Levi M.

My electric bill is also 5x my Internet bill

Christopher S.

So if we just tax the utilities their capex, we can close the budget deficit?

Christopher M.

Levi: Are you heating your home with incandescent light bulbs?

Doc S.

See the light! Save the electrons!

Casey L.

Chris M.: also see this post from Billy Ray: http://rbg.glasgow-ky.com/2008/03/elegant-solut...

Christopher M.

Thanks Casey - Billy Ray is amazing on this stuff. I did an interview with him a few weeks ago: http://muninetworks.org/content/billy-ray-commu...

Levi M.

In calif a kwh costs almost 30¢

Christopher S.

That degree of electric efficiency requires local electric storage (battery, flywheel, whatever...)

Elliot N.

I love it!

Elliot N.

we just ate

Christopher M.

I wrote about the benefits to Chattanooga's electric grid from the fiber network (the #1 reason for building it) in our case study of their network (as well as Lafayette and Bristol): http://www.ilsr.org/broadband-speed-light/

Doc S.

State PUCs are notoriously lame, I'm told. True?

Aleecia

Isn't most of the red spike on that graph due to air conditioning? How does a smart grid reduce demand for being cooler?

Christopher M.

This screwy incentives for private companies are why they want to big massive, unneeded facilities rather than any efficiency.

Christopher S.

Doc: State PUCs are, shall we say, uneven.

Michael W.

what he is saying right is important

Christopher M.

Aleecia: the AC in neighborhoods can be cycled, for one thing

Michael W.

saying right now

Christopher M.

Aleecia: Also, more electricity is pumped into the grid to maintain voltage at last house on the line... often this is more than necessary because they don't have proper monitoring. Waste.

Levi M.

Smart grids are supposedly much more efficient http://energy.gov/oe/technology-development/sma...

Casey L.

security a huge issue for those guys.

Michael W.

a it is true in both public and private utilities

Christopher S.

Per home data: 100 things (IOT), 1Kbps, = 100kpbs. So 10 homes = 1 Meg. 1000 homes = 1 gig. But would devices really need 1Kbps?

Aleecia

So if I understand, you're suggesting that house A has A/C on, house B has it off. Then flip. So you keep an average of one house with A/C. As opposed to, house A and B fire randomly, and can both be on at the same time. Is that roughly the idea here?

Michael W.

casey, that is what they say. not true, however.

Christopher M.

Aleecia: yes, that is one aspect as I understand it.

Aleecia

So you're not doing a "smart house" alone but rather getting returns from a network

That's not bad. Thanks for the clue.

Christopher M.

Also, when things go wrong (suddenly creating high demand) you are alerted quickly

Michael W.

chris m, what they found is they could pinpoint an outage in seconds.

Christopher S.

Still trying to convince myself that there really is a high bit rate needed for smart grid. Is there?

Aleecia

It also means that every idea I've had around privacy and smart grids (an area of privacy I haven't looked at deeply, as is clear) is utterly hopeless. So that's interesting too.

Casey L.

Michael W.: should've said: "security is a huge issue/obstacle in *dealing with* those guys."

Christopher M.

Christopher S: I don't think so. Just a need to definitely get a few bits across the network reliably frequently.

Michael W.

chris s, it is the speed and intelligence, and reliaility. not bandwidth.

Christopher M.

Gary won't tell us the secret because he is writing a tell-all book.

Christopher S.

But if we don't need bandwidth then why would electrics build FttH?

Roy l.

Chris S: no; video requires lots if you want to monitor elec facilities

Christopher S.

Video to monitor facilities? i.e., see where things are down in a storm?

Michael W.

i was arguing for smart grids in 1989. so the idea has been around a long time. and they can include it in the rate base. but utitlities don't want to deploy something that will reduce use.

it makes no sense to them.

Roy l.

electrics had communications facilities PRE gigabit fascination and got to use "smart grid" stimulus funds for broadband

Jim B.

Here's a link to an article about the Smart Grid Customer Bill of Rights developed by the municipal electric utility in Naperville, Illinois: http://www.emeter.com/smart-grid-watch/2010/sma...

Michael W.

and BTW, if we built fiber to Jim's home in rural Georgie, those hills would be filled with homes in two yesrs.

Christopher S.

White House responds to cellphone unlocking petition: https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/make-...

Christopher M.

Michael: It is a good point. Development patterns could really be awful if we suddenly drop great Internet on rural areas ... especially if we don't solve urban problem as well.

Michael W.

i'm not againstit, Chris. just sayin...

Christopher M.

I mentioned this to people along Minnesota North Shore - electric coop building amazing FTTH network, some of the best connections in MN. Currently has 5K year-round resident.

Development patterns are going to change up there and it could be painful

Aleecia

From the link to the Obama administration's response on unlocking cell phones: "The Obama Administration would support a range of approaches to addressing this issue, including narrow legislative fixes in the telecommunications space that make it clear: neither criminal law nor technological locks should prevent consumers from switching carriers when they are no longer bound by a service agreement or other obligation."

Sounds like a good test case for sample legislation.

Christopher S.

Fiber to a community = being on a major road. In Cyberspace, EVERY road can be a major road.

Jim B.

Michael, you're right that the concept of smart grids has been around since the late 1980s. Billy Ray didn't just get into this 7-8 years ago. His concept of combining telecom with electric uses to get something that he called "infotricity" was at the heart of the American Public Power Association's many communications with the FCC in the early 1990s. Also, Bill St. Arnaud has been working in this area in Canada for at least the last decade and a half.

Christopher S.

Jim B, anybody: There isn't really a business case, is there, for an electric utility to build FttH for its own internal management?

Or, if there is, what is it?

Don M.

Infrastructure interdepencies can yield huge productivity gains but combine with increased vulnerabilities from mgt. complexity and disruptions.

Christopher M.

Christopher S: Chattanooga says their investment could be paid off solely with benefits to the electrical side. Also solely with triple play.

Mary Beth H.

http://www.festivalinternational.com/site.php Here's to another Fiber Fete - Geoff Daily you listening?? To coincide with the Festival International - great music event that rivals Jazz Fest

Christopher S.

Chris M: not challenging, just not understanding. What does an FttH network do for an electric that saves or makes money?

Don M.

ICT as meta-infrastructure. The ring that binds them all...

Roy l.

Chris S: no. the electrics deliver electrons. FTTH might be worthwhile to provide broadband and video since there may be relatively small incremental investment from existing facilities

Christopher M.

Depends on if they generate. Chattanooga buys from TVA, more efficient delivery means spending less to buy electricity. It means faster (less costly) recovery from tornadoes (big deal over past 3 years. It means less theft (there is more than you think). It means fewer truck rolls to check meters.

Christopher M.

Additionally, as it is a City Utility, it believes it should invest for the betterment of the community. The SUPER smart grid (it is beyond the basics that many have done) have reduced outages that would have lowered productivity, which is calculated to be worth tens of millions of 10 years.

Elliot N.

+1 mary beth

Michael W.

Chris S, i think the Tacoma City Light project answered all these questions.

Mary Beth H.

In 2011 the number of Pay TV Households is flat http://allthingsd.com/20121107/cord-keeping-pay...

Don M.

What's the largest non-electric utility created community network?

Michael W.

ooh MB, a good reason to travel...

Christopher S.

Micheal W: link for Tacoma City Light? My ignorance re: actual operations of community networks is pretty vast...

Michael W.

that peer to peer idea is important. too many project fail to exploit that aspect

Christopher M.

Because of the Intellirupters on the grid, a firm building a manufacturing facility avoided $500,000 of cost to build a redundant power feed. This makes Chattanooga more attractive to businesses -and electric utilities have a long history of making investments to encourage economic development because it increases power sales.

Roy l.

$995/mo gig sounds more realistic than what had been reported as Chattanooga's $300/mo

Doc S.

I wonder how much local cloud storage business rides atop that 100Mbps service.

Christopher M.

Don: good question. If you mean FTTH, probably Burlington unfortunately. They have an electric utility but were not involved because of internal politics. Next may be Loma Linda, CA.

Christopher S.

Never underestimate the role of recreational litigation!

Mike W.

prioritizing local network traffic...if a telco does that they are accused of a "network neutrality" violation.

Roy l.

telecom legislation has put lots of attorneys' children through college?

Christopher M.

Roy: I think that $995 is either dedicated or has very low oversubscription ratio. Chattanooga $300 is oversubscribed I believe.

Jim B.

Christopher S, I'm not sure that even Chattanooga could justify FTTH just for electric uses, especially without the $111.5 million smart grid stimulus grant that it received from the Department of Energy. I don't know of any other utility that could do so. One of the main reasons for this is that the greatest benefits of a smart grid are do not inure to the utility itself but to the community (e.g., local businesses saving millions by getting back in operation much more quickly after a natural disaster).

Roy l.

i think prioritizing 911 calls is considered to be ok

Christopher M.

Mike W: I think you are just seizing on the term prioritizing. Not necessarily violating network neutrality, especially if talking about NN as requiring like treatment for like packets.

Christopher S.

Jim B: Cool. That's what I thought. Reasonable people can disagree about policy, but money is money, and we ought to be able to agree on that!

Christopher M.

To be clear, Chattanooga was committed to the project before they got the grant. The grant expedited the project.

Mitsuko H.

Can anyone help me identify the best examples of municipal broadband systems that are NOT part of a municipal electric?

Christopher M.

Mitsi: If you are looking for FTTH, there are not many. If you are looking for munis that have just made telecom investments, there are more.

Christopher M.

Christopher S: There you go.

Christopher S.

That's not the smart meter system. That's the video system used to "monitor" electricity usage...

Mitsuko H.

Yes. I am looking for FTTH.

Mike W.

Chris M: i would say letting local traffic go @100Mbps and throttling Internet @3Mbps is prioritizing. Dont get me wrong, I am totally for it.

Roy l.

smart grid shifting load requires smart (time of day) rates. remember waiting till 11pm to make "long distance" calls?

Christopher M.

Mike W: Fair enough, I think that is misunderstanding the NN concept, but perhaps I am just too contrary for my own good.

Aleecia

Lemons market. Privacy has been so bad for so long, users will not trust promises made to them. They expect those promises to reverse later, or have loopholes.

Christopher M.

I think of it as a WAN vs. Internet.

Mike W.

Chris M: I think that everyone misunderstands the NN concept

Christopher S.

Chris M: Anyone who says they understand NN to some level more granular than "play fair" is kidding themselves, or you.

Christopher M.

Roy: How about devices that are smart enough to do it on their own? Not like phone calls..

Jim B.

Chris M, at the same time, Chattanooga did not develop its system just for electric uses, but it knew from the outset that it was going to provide communications services to help pay for the system. That's, of course, the way that we should be thinking of FTTH systems -- as platforms for multiple services and revenue streams.

David W.

Would a carbon tax help LUS care about peak loads?

Christopher M.

Jim: Chattanoooga started bonding before the court cases were done. Maybe they were 100% positive they would win, but it seems to me that they are serious about seeing this investment through electric lens. I _totally_ agree with you about how we _should_ do it. I've been noting above what Chattanooga told me.

Roy l.

Chris M: yes, manufacturers are working on smart appliances (eg fridge) that could be programmed to cycle at off-peak times. my old dishwasher permits me to delay start a couple hours so it can wake me up. my elec coop cycles my a/c during summer as part of a smart grid / "demand response" program

Mitsuko H.

Chris M. Net Neutrality should mean treating like things alike, not treating everything the same. So streaming from Comcast-owned Hulu should be treated like other video streaming from non-Comcast sites. All streaming video could be treated as a lower priority than voice calls. A one second delay makes voice almost unuseable. But a one second delay in e-mail isn't that armful.

Don M.

http://kck20lib.org/

Christopher M.

Mitsi: no arg from me

Levi M.

Mitsuko, that is an excellent summary, "treating things ALIKE, not treating everything the SAME"

Eric N.

is that "reasonable"?

Christopher M.

Mitsi: Monticello, MN; Loma Linda in CA are two non public power FTTH. Can't think of others. I tend to think the incremental investment and expansion is best model for non public power cities.

Another is Sandy, OR - started as wireless, now doing a unique FTTH thing with a private company that sortof owns it. Am watching it for lessons.

Levi M.

I personally tend to think that the dumb pipe model is the goal but Mitsuko's quote is something to think about

Mike W.

Mitsuko, Chris M: Everything outside of the local network (coming from the Internet) should be treated the same. beyond that it gets tricky.

Don M.

http://kck20lib.org/

Jim B.

One of the most successful non-utility municipal FTTH systems is Powell, Wyoming. You may have heard about its program to have local teachers provide English lessons to South Koreans in real time over Powell's fiber system.

Eric N.

Mike W: that's different than what they were saying, why do you think what matters is the origination of the bits rather than treating like things alike?

or were you just stating the NN rule?

Christopher M.

Jim: Pretty sure they have a muni public power. They did a ton of investment in improving grid before the fiber network. They do not offer services though. Perhaps I am wrong.

Power Muni Electric Department: http://www.cityofpowell.com/assets/pages/city/e...

But triple play is delivered by a nearby rural coop provider.

Christopher M.

I think Lafayette had 100 votes in that referendum - not many property owners

1896

Christopher S.

To those on back-channel: A truly inordinate number of the names start with the first 13 letters of the alphabet. Just sayin'...

Christopher M.

Terry has a fascinating slide show about attempts to privatize the utility over the last 115 years

Mike W.

Eric N. i just think when it is a service running on the ISPs local network it makes a difference. I dont know what the rules are...should my IPTV service count against my monthly usage cap? (I am Canadian, dunno if those exist here)

Judi C.

you talkin' to me Mr. Starts with a C?

Christopher S.

No, I'm suffering from early-in-the-alphabet self-loathing

Judi C.

but you are Savage! Is that not worth importance by itself?

perhaps you should edit your ID to reflect this.

Christopher S.

The US is truly schizophrenic about public v. private ownership of infrastructure. Electrics (investor, coop, muni). Roads (public, toll). Airports. Schools. Etc.

Christopher M.

ENTERGY!

Doc S.

Again, shedding some dark on the situation.

Christopher S.

I like being "Savage." Nice for a lawyer, no?

Eric N.

Mike W: caps exist, though at this point it's more like "tiering" (go above 300 GB in a month and pay $10 for 10 GB, etc). In terms of local traffic vs. Internet traffic, I think that's largely unanswered, maybe someone else in the chat knows.

Eric N.

I guess it would depend on whether the local favoring was "reasonable" as per the FCC's Open Internet Rules.

Greg R.

don't lean.

Roy l.

S: so should we start privitizing now that we're sequestered?

Doc S.

For the photographers here, can we have better light on the faces onstage? The straight-down light alone is hideous.

Christopher S.

Maybe "resurgence of the family unit" is why there's an increase in population in Hiawatha territories...

Christopher S.

Roy I: dunno. I have tried from time to time to develop a consistent conceptual map to distinguish when it makes "sense" for public versus private ownership. Not sure it's any good...

Christopher M.

If we put up with cherry picking now, we make universal access so much harder to solve.

Aleecia

"As I noted last month, AT&T and Windstream have lobbied Georgia lawmakers to pass a bill (HB 282) that would prohibit a town or city from deploying their own broadband if anyone in a single census tract has a 1.5 Mbps connection. This lobbying comes as AT&T moves to disconnect DSL lines and Windstream ceases network upgrades due to a lack of competition, meaning that these companies won't serve you -- but don't want you to serve yourself, either." Source: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Google-Polit...

Elliot N.

thresholds are much lower in dense, lower-income neighbourhoods

Christopher M.

Like health care - if you start with just the healthy people, it is really expensive to cover everyone.

Mary Beth H.

http://www.freegeek.org/ Our PC's to People is Free Geek. The city gives all old computers to Free Geek - great org.

Mike G.

Chris S. I think the reason you have problems mapping public-versus-private is that there's no compelling criterion.

Mike W.

Eric N. AFAIK the only time that ISPs dont count local traffic against your cap is when it is their service. that is why I am as much for peering regulation as enforcing net neutrality.

Doc S.

Eric, et. al., this brings up the misnomer-ish nature of "caps." AT&T's 3Gb/mo mobile data rate isn't "capped" at 3Gb, although it's often called that. The cost above that is $10/Gb. What's wrong about AT&T's rates is not "caps," but the scam of the $50 for 5Gb rate, which appeals only to suckers who don't notice that they pay the same for 5Gb if they take the $30 for 3Gb rate and pay the $10/Gb above that. As it stands they pay $50/month whether they use .5 or 4.99Gb in a month.

Eric N.

Mike W: oh you mean like a "specialized" service? Yes that issue has come to the fore recently, and awaits a resolution.

Christopher M.

Smart Riverside has received awards for its program to get PCs to low-income families and offers access to them using city-owned Wi-Fi.

http://www.smartriverside.org/

Christopher S.

Mike G: you can get a lot of the way with whether the relevant technology is stable or not. If it's stable, and if it really is infrastructure (~ "high fixed capital") then the lower cost of public capital wins in the long run. But if there's lots of changing technology then private risk capital is better. That sort of works...

Mike G.

Chris S., I don't know what "stable" means anymore. I once thought the power grid was "stable."

Christopher S.

Eric N: every service my clients want to do is very, very specialized. Trust me on this... <g>

Mike G: That's why it's fuzzy around the edges. But electric power HAS been "stable" for quite some time. Now there may be disruptive things to do.

Doc S.

Thanks for the better stage lighting.

Eric N.

Doc S: sadly there's is a mischaracterization of the business practice, but I agree that there is some shady practice going on, and lack of consumer education is part of it.

Christopher M.

Mike G: Heh, punctuated equilibrium. Evolution, baby.

Roy l.

$9000/passing sounds like expensive undergrounding are they going through bedrock? they need really crappy copper from the ILEC who would find it cheaper to place fiber (on poles) to avoid truck rolls

Mike W.

Doc S. my perspective comes from building networks in remote Northern Canadian communities, where the telco does not allow colo / peering and charges ~$20/GB.

Christopher S.

Chris M: and during the periods of equilibrium (rather than punctuation)...?

Mike W.

Doc S. and sells "wholesale" to competitor for $25/GB :-[

Mike G.

Yeah, Chris and Chris -- I think the question is whether you think disruptive changes (including changes in existing infrastructure) are the norm. I think they've become so.

Elliot N.

middle mile of < 1gb? I am not sure that is right

Aleecia

(people are using their e-cars to deal with power outages; this is a thing that happens in practice)

Roy l.

let's call them "S" and "M" and keep them apart

Christopher S.

Mike G: good point and calls for some pondering

Roy I: At least I get to be "S". And who's tomorrow morning's opening speaker?

Ooops I meant tomorrow afternoon's speaker...

Roy l.

who's on first, abbot?

Lorelei K.

I love these southern accents...makes technology discussions much more compelling

Mike G.

Chris S., I think the lead speaker will be talking about p*rn.

Christopher M.

Wireless cheaper over what time period?

Christopher S.

Mike G: Hence, I'd rather be "S" than "M"

Christopher M.

Cannot ignore time dimension when comparing investments.

Roy l.

how far into the grid does fiber need to be deployed? not to the home, but how close?

Steve W.

Now playing: The best things in life are free

Now playing: Deep Purple

Now playing: Wonderful World

Now playing: Polka Dots and Moonbeams

Steve W.

Now playing: If I had you

Now playing: These foolish things

Now playing: Who knows where or when?

Steve W.

Now playing: It had to be you

Now playing: I'm confessing that I love you

Now playing: Dream a little dream of me

Now playing: Rubber ducky

Now playing: It's alright with me

Steve W.

Now playing: Don't fence me in

Christopher M.

Surprise!!!

Wait, I thought we were all being quiet, waiting for S to get back...

Doc S.

yay: "The needs of the users."

Never liked the term "users," though. There's only one other business that calls its customers "users."

Joe P.

drug dealers!

Christopher M.

I often use subscribers. Beats consumers, no?

Doc S.

"Hi. I'm Doc. I'm an Internet user."

Christopher M.

Hi Doc

Doc S.

Hi, Chris.

Roy l.

medicinal distribution outlet participants; silicon valley has a higher per square mile distribution than SF, LA, etc and welcome, WA and CO

Christopher S.

Facebook: the Gateway drug of the Internet...

Joe P.

I thought that was AOL?

David I.

Broadband without Internet ain't worth squat -- http://isen.com/blog/2009/04/broadband-without-...

I think this panel is using "broadband" as metonymy.

Roy l.

because the programming side has pretty low margins

Doc S.

+1, DI.

David I.

I have to assume that "broadband" means "fast connections between me and the Internet"

Christopher M.

The panel cannot see the chat - monitor facing wrong direction

Eric N.

David I: unless you're the FCC...

David I.

EN +1

Paul H +1

Earl C.

Interesting historical note -- when Congress was debating the 96 Act broadband meant 20 mbps and up, while narrowband was 1.5 mbps and below. Unfortunately the FCC never read the GAO and OTA reports, much less the public press, that used those definitions.

Doc S.

David Weinberger and I started a session here a few years back by turning around our chairs to face the backchannel on the wall. Fun.

Christopher M.

And "Advanced Telecommunications Services" meant 45+ Mbps?

Roy l.

"front channel" lets you see the notes the rest of the kids are passing

Earl C.

Presumably, since that would allow HD video streaming along with voice and data.

Christopher S.

Knowing there's a back channel can add a certain frission to being a speaker. It forces you into a meta-awareness...

Christopher M.

It is easy to forget it is there when you are alone on the stage. Hard to forget when on a panel

Christopher S.

I found it impossible to forget, when I was up there...

Maybe I'm just insecure.

David W.

Probably a good time to mention that there is a way-back channel commenting on this one.

Christopher M.

Anyone notice if FCC Chair G took credit for Illinois Gov Gig grants?

Christopher S.

David, you think that's the REAL back-channel? Surely you know that there's a back-back-back channel commenting on that...

(It's channels all the way down...)

Christopher M.

S +1

David I.

Love this: (It's channels all the way down...)

Don M.

How many years ago, speaker Hundt logged in and chatted back from the podium.

David W.

Whatever you can do, I can do meta...

Christopher S.

Don't remind us how old we're getting. Everybody under 30 on this chat, give me a shout-out RIGHT NOW

Christopher S.

David W +1

Or, in the immortal words of XKCD:

David I.

Paul H check stage monitor

Christopher S.

I'm So Meta Even This Acronym

David W.

Chris S. like that!

Mary Beth H.

Chris S Andy Schwartzman pointed out the demographics this morning. We all agreed that we need scholarships and outreach for young people to attend F2C.

Christopher S.

Back to our regularly scheduled broadcast: Comment being made of importance of organizational culture to local network performance. Culture of Internet is not (or at least was not) commercial at all...

Christopher M.

Yeah for member owned! BVU's "advertising" budget is largely about sponsoring local teams and investing back in the community in visible ways.

Thorny question: when coops expand, do new subscribers get to be members? Have seen it go both ways.

Roy l.

"young people" may not know there exists a reality in which there is no internet connection

Christopher S.

Kids these days!

Ankit K.

I would hope the History courses teach about those days.

Aleecia

Roy I - yes. I use the phrase "when spam was invented" and the undergrads have no idea what to make of it. Spam is like hurricanes. It's an act of nature, it's always been there. The idea that two green card lawyers created the problem is rejected out of hand.

Christopher S.

Mary Beth H.: Connectivity is the sea in which young people swim, socially. I think the notion that it could be f**ked with would horrify them.

Aleecia: In fairness, I think Robert Morris, Jr., arguably invented spam, although not an email implementation...

Aleecia

His was by no means the first worm, if that's what you're getting at

Christopher S.

But the Morris worm is what brought the problem into public consciousness, I think.

Doc S.

On kids not knowing a non-Internet world, a clip from my book:

Christopher S.

Have you ever notices what a thin skin a lot of big companies seem to have?

Aleecia

And back on the kids these days theme, they'd have no idea

Christopher S.

Doc: no link?

David I.

It's not thin skin, it is a business model.

Doc S.

It’s 2002, and the Jeffrey is seven. As always, he’s full of questions. As sometimes happens, I don’t have an answer. But this time, he comes back with a simple demand:
“Look it up,” he says.
“I can’t. I’m driving.”
“Look it up anyway.”
“I need a computer for that.” “Why?”

Elliot N.

IRUs?

Roy l.

thin skin, thick wallet = trouble

Doc S.

ug. hard to paste from a .pdf. sorry.

Christopher S.

Indefeasible Right of Use.

Ankit K.

I sorta have a foot in that kids door but am mostly in the adult door because I studied Internet Engineering.

Christopher S.

Basically condominiumizing a multi-fiber strand, or wavelengths within a fiber

Ankit K.

They still think its Magic

Christopher S.

Per Clarke's Law, it IS magic

Ankit K.

How many times my friends have an "idea" and no problem solving skills to begin executing is scary.

Tricia S.

If interested in the Rome story, check out MakerVillage.org, a member-owned startup community with access to GigNet

Christopher S.

Ankit: I learned early in my legal career that every good idea eventually degenerates into work.

Ankit K.

I use that line frequently with them. They dont like that response :-)

I emphasize "HARD work"

Earl C.

So how does the Internet fit Clarke's law -- it is a 30 year old technology thqt is hardly "sufficiently advanced" anymore...

Christopher S.

Ankit: you are SO old school...

Earl: the cool software is noew

that's "new"

Roy l.

S: billable hours...but more attorney [protection if texters never get past the capability of producing a first draft

Christopher M.

Few communities _want_ to build these networks. They do so because they recognize they have a responsibility to do it.

I _want_ to lose weight by eating donuts. Such is life.

Earl C.

The software is not the Internet... It is what you can do when connected to the ubiquitous transmission network known as the Internet.

Christopher M.

Doc has a section in Intentional Economy discussing the diff between "user centric" and "user driven" ... if I haven't mangled it.

Christopher S.

Does anyone understand why the private sector falls down on this? If the Verizon's and Cox's of the world were delivering "enough", this wouldn't be an issue. But I guess it's not in major urban/suburban areas...?

Christopher M.

Um. Intention Economy, not Intentional

Christopher S.

As compared to the "Accidental Economy"...

Christopher M.

Highly recommend that book by the way. Talk about a better system...

Christopher S.

Chris M: +1.

David I.

Doc, it is endemic to the economics of infrastructure. They can't monetize enough of it, so they don't build it.

Don M.

80 million adults(15 and older) access Internet at libraries. 3/4ths have access at home. Value proposition: if each one is worth $10 per year(price of an hour at airport) is that enough to deliver fiber to all 16,400 facilities? What would be the subsequent value of that as open public mid mile in every community?

Earl C.

Are all of the speakers talking about fiber networks funded by BTOP, or are only some of them using BTOP funds?

Aleecia

Tricia, thanks for the MakerVillage.org pointer. I love that housing is part of it.

Christopher S.

Don M: Any "Section 254" mavens here? does the "schools and libraries" fund pay for real broadband?

Doc S.

So if they don't build it, we (including many here) do. F2C is attractive to those who see economics of infrastructure in a broader and more interesting way. Hard to generalize, though. That's the challenge.

Hold the mic closer, guys.

Lorelei K.

For the next grant program, couldn't we transform shuttered post offices into civic technology hubs? Just modernizing the education and community function of the PO? What's going to happen to all this publicly owned, high social capital real estate, anyway?

Christopher S.

Invoking the spirit of Steve Jobs, shouldn't 'net connectivity "just work," so that community engagement isn't needed? We don't have local community engagement about roads or sewers, e.g., (except the normal NIMBYism that seems inapplicable to networks)

Levi M.

Can't imagine trying t strategize a marketing plan in a public meeting!

Don M.

LK: trending privatization and sale of public assets

Mitsuko H.

Christopher S. local governments have huge community engagement on road, transit, and public buildings.

Tricia S.

Aleecia, yes and some of the first homes built in Rome ever ...now able to host whatever can be created on superfluous connectivity. Hoping to contribute to local history in similar way as homes did hundreds of years ago.

Lorelei K.

I know someone at Dept of Ag who is interested in how this might work i.e. transferring closing Post Office space to another public function

Doc S.

How much air is enough?

Aleecia

"Power comes from network. It doesn't come from hierarchy."

Christopher S.

from network, not hierarchy? That will come as a surprise to those high up in the hierarchy...

Doc S.

That's a tough one: "power comes from network, not hierarchy." One tends to assume that power structures by nature are pyramids.

Christopher S.

Power comes

Tricia S.

Alecia + 1

Christopher S.

Actually... the people at the top of a hierarchy in fact acquire and maintain their power by means of networks. Just not necessarily the same networks that will displace them...

First transatlantic digital cable was... the TELEGRAPH in the mid-1800s, by Lord Kelvin. Just sayin'...

Don M.

Interesting to compare sites, 9,000(?) PO's as quintessentially federal with 16,400 public libraries as essentially local institutions, both entirely public.

Levi M.

Morse code isn't binary. Dots, dashes and pauses = 3 not 2 possible states

Elliot N.

I love the upload love!

Joe P.

Symmetric is key

Christopher S.

Levi M: Not binary but still digital as opposed to analog. (Note: last time I counted I have 10 digits...)

Aleecia

microwave on the battlements: swoon

Elliot N.

Aleecia: ++++1

Lorelei K.

The 9:30 club at 14th and V has a community wifi antennae on it now, too!

Doc S.

"Telecommunications is one of the most boring things that you can get engaged in." — Peter Cochrane

Lorelei K.

is why we need more people with cool accents talking about it to the public

Christopher S.

Doc S. Well, I've been in telecom since 1985, and based on my wife's views, Cochrane is absolutely correct...

Levi M.

I don't buy it. Morse code is not digital in the modern sense of digital binary systems. Peter can claim the title of first digital cable in my opinion

Doc S.

... so make clouds personal: http://personal-clouds.org/wiki/ .

Joe P.

I need digital underwear!

Doc S.

BigCos are still institutionally nostalgic for 3270 display terminals and VT-100 and -200 dumb terminals. That DNA i stil there.

Jeff S.

Digital just means discrete

Doc S.

I talked to a company in Europe that didn't want to use a U.S. cloud because of the risk that the U.S. government could get into their stuff.

Ankit K.

I am also here for Personal Clouds

Christopher S.

Doc S: right, I think he's wrong about the "security" issue. It's true that most private entities stink at security, but the problem isn't non-cloudiness, it's just stupidity...

Jeff S.

E.g. One of the first wireless digital communications networks: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semaphore_line

Ankit K.

+1 more for Doc's Intention Economy and Phil's Live Web Series - http://www.windley.com/liveweb/

Christopher S.

Re: digital, not trying to take away Peter's props, I'm just a stickler for some of this technical crap.

Mike W.

Doc S. almost all Canadian state and federal gov depts will not host on AWS, Azure, etc. because of Patriot Act

Christopher S.

Scale does not make for anonymity. That's security through obscurity. Doesn't work.

Doc S.

The Internet of my things and the API of me: http://www.windley.com/archives/2013/02/the_int...

Aleecia

anonymity loves company, but the idea that cloud computing grants that is surprising to me

Christopher S.

Monoculture: one or a few big places where everything is stored.

Christopher S.

Aleecia +1 I think he is wrong about security.

Doc S.

Yes, the Patriot Act was the issue. A huge value-subtract for all U.S.-based cloud utilities.

Aleecia

My point was on privacy rather than security - but sure

Christopher S.

IMHO the only solution to security of personal information is real encryption.

But then, I'm pretty effing paranoid.

Doc S.

btw, AWS now has a free tier: http://aws.amazon.com/free/

Christopher S.

After-the-fact email is enormously revealing. There are lawyers who make entire careers dealing with finding damaging crap in emails.

Doc S.

Include self-hosting in that graphic.

Freedom boxes, etc.

Earl C.

Encryption is the answer says the guy typing on his computer in public with people sitting behind him... :)

Lorelei K.

new CSIS report...http://csis.org/publication/raising-ba... over 90% of threats are simple fixes

Christopher S.

Earl C: +1. In much of my life I behave on the assumption that what I say could be in the papers tomorrow.

Now we're talking

Doc S.

Chris S., I used to know a company in Ventura that did nothing but go through many TB of subpoena'd corporate emails, looking for incriminating coherencies using algorithms learned from dolphin speech research.

Don M.

Wheres the key?

Lorelei K.

I always knew Flipper was a baddie

shep

I wonder if he's heard of Taho LAFS.

Christopher S.

But for his doc-chopping to work there has to be software on your machine to make recreation and reassembly easy. And that just means the point of vulnerability has moved from the cloud to the machine. so you steal the machine. Back to same problem.

shep

s/Taho/Tahoe/

Doc S.

Is all this not cool for the dark side as well?

Jeff S.

passwords need to go

Don M.

more passwords than friends?

Lorelei K.

I keep all my passwords in a pillowcase under my bed along with my gold bars

shep

http://xkcd.com/936/

Aleecia

I've seen years of discussions at conferences of what to use other than passwords. So far, nothing great has come out of it.

Doc S.

About half of my stuff is fully secure because I don't know the password to it.

Christopher S.

For a small fee, I'll share my way to generate passwords with numbers and capital letters, average length 9, that are actually easy to remember...

Of course, if I tell you, then I'll have to shoot you... <g>

Aleecia

And while we're on xkcd, today is all too good: http://xkcd.com/1181/

Doc S.

And Mordac the Preventer of Information Services: http://search.dilbert.com/comic/Mordac%20The%20...

Christopher S.

Aleecia +1 +1

Christopher S.

They are selling Stuxnet and Flame because they are obsolete

Eric N.

That is scary.

Doc S.

The MI5 Cloud: shaken, not stirred.

That's why all the graduate programs in math are under suspicion.

Lorelei K.

okay, time for a game: who will star in the cyber thriller "The Deep and the Devious"

Doc S.

The item on the left is called the adtech business.

Christopher S.

Anne Hathaway and Jennifer Lawrence.

We'll work out the plot later; that would work for me...

Aleecia

slideshare.net/PeterCochrane

Doc S.

http://slideshare.net/PeterCochrane

Lorelei K.

Tron needs to make a guest appearance

Doc S.

Masa Sushi, out the front door, left at Panera, up the stairs to the left, and it's on the second floor, all the way back. Elsworth Ave.

I love the size of Frank Vignola's pants.

Brough

http://www.masajapanese.com/location.aspx

Steve W.

Now playing: Paper Moon

Steve W.

Now playing: Perfidia

Now playing: Walk Don't Run

Steve W.

Now playing: Volare

Now playing: Don't Get Around Much Anymore

Steve W.

Now playing: Take the A Train

Now playing: It don't mean a thing (if it ain't got that swing)

Now playing: Caravan

F2C Backchannel — Monday, March 4

F2C Backchannel

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