Campfire: Tuesday, March 5

Steve W.

Now playing: Democracy Now

Judi C.

Drones!

More about Glenn: http://www.lannan.org/bios/glenn-greenwald and Amy: http://www.lannan.org/bios/amy-goodman with interesting podcasts

Judi C.

http://www.democracynow.org/ - including live stream of F2C

Judi C.

some of New America's tools: http://measurementlab.net/measurement-lab-tools

Judi C.

https://commotionwireless.net/

Andrea P.

Background on how academic publishers lobby against open access to federally funded research: http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/03/03/163...

Judi C.

fwiw, https://commotionwireless.net/ is really slow, busy? Looking forward to seeing what Sascha was talking about

Andrea P.

(for profit academic publishers, that is)

Sascha M.

commotionwireless.net is working fine for me -- is the problem still happening for you, Judi?

Judi C.

now it's faster, perhaps too popular a few mins ago.

Judi C.

wow, ethics has a role today? Glad to hear someone thinks so

Frank P.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-...

Doc S.

This is such a critical set of points. The Rule of Law has lately been about the protection of power and privilege... and the country has become one where ordinary people are prosecuted and imprisoned — in huge numbers — while the powerful and privileged carry out criminal and/or blatantly immoral activities with impunity.

Elliot N.

rome.....

Christopher S.

Post Church-Committee congress was the last New Deal congress. Then we got the Reagan Revolution, which changed the zeitgeist, to put it mildly.

Doc S.

Would even Reagan approve of what we have now, I wonder?

Christopher S.

Reagan wouldn't. But he was a lot more pragmatic than the "revolutionaries" who brought him to power and prospered under his wings.

Frank P.

Reagan wouldn't?

Christopher S.

All of Glenn's points are right. But in the real world, when we (the nation) are attacked, we react weirdly and viscerally. In WWII we got the internment camps. Post-911 we got Gitmo and enormous domestic communications spying.

Jeff S.

Too big to...

be prosecuted?

Just an idea

Christopher S.

Frank P: I don't know, obviously, and we can't ask him. But my sense is that he was not nearly as "conservative" as the folks who came in with him and later brought us Bush II. Bush I was an old-line Establishment pragmatists.

Pardon of Nixon was totally lawful. The President is allowed to pardon anybody.

Christopher S.

Ford was duly punished by not being re-elected.

Don M.

That was the deal I made with Dick.

Elliot N.

that argument is true of anything resembling a war measures act

Judi C.

is Glenn being recorded locally? Livestream is having problems.

Elliot N.

internment and any number of other things

Bill O.

"The contagious nature of freedom"

Christopher S.

I'm not saying that it is right or legal that we do weird s**t when we get attacked. I am saying that we actually do it.

Don M.

At least we had AG Mitchell to protect the rest of us.

Elliot N.

it is the use of "no longer......" that I struggle with. feels like it was always this way. terribly terribly wrong, but not new

Christopher S.

I have a different take on the Nixon thing. We have a long tradition of NOT going after Presidents or other high officials who leave office. Maybe that needs to change.

Elliot N: Yes.

Levi M.

What about Clinton?

Don M.

Every incoming president knows they will also be at the mercy of the next president.

Rollie C.

we take it easy on past exectives so they will not resist leaving.

Christopher S.

Totally agree that state power is unique

Rollie +1 We have to be able to get rid of them. If the only thing keeping them out of jail is staying in power, that's a bad incentive.

Christopher S.

"Fear consequences of abuse of power" -- if they fear too much, they will hold on to power to avoid having to face the music

Judi C.

+1 Chris S re bad incentive. We're a bit lopsided with power incentives these days

Christopher S.

Judi: Agree. Obsolete power corrupts obsoletely. Our issues today are related to, but not the same as, what we faced in the post-Church Commission, post-Viet Nam, post-Watergate 1970s

Enemy of the state? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enema_of_the_State No, wait...

Mike G.

With fronds like Chris S., who needs anemones?

Christopher S.

Mike G +1

Part of the reason people feared supporting Wikileaks is that it actually isn't clear who the "enemies" are, post-9/11

Doc S.

And look at what we did to Aaron.

Charles P.

Why was it ok for NY Times and other big media companies to publish the same things as Wikileaks?

Judi C.

According to the Gov, there's no difference now.

Christopher S.

I am agreeing with most of what Glenn is saying. And yet... post 9/11 our concept of "war" has changed. Our concept of "enemy" has changed. Still thinking through how that affects what counts as appropriate government action in response.

Doc S.

Shades of Hannah Arendt's Origins of Totalitarianism. You get it from intimidation, which she calls "terror," btw. But it's fear of the known unknown: the possibility that crossing a regime-set unseen but very present line will drop one into an abyss.

Paul H.

Judi - should have recordings on individual cameras, hopefully can edit into archives later.

Christopher S.

Doc S: +1 But we are still reeling from a world in which bad guys fly airliners into buildings.

Rollie C.

tell the virtues of passive to those mass murdered

Judi C.

thanks Paul H

Elliot N.

feels like a message to be smart in how we dissent. I recently made a decision to NOT dissent in a certain venue in order to keep my powder dry for bigger things. it makes me think of the old bull joke (and I dislike jokes) http://www.wisdomgroup.com/blog/old_bull_young_...

Levi M.

Elliot +1

Doc S.

We make enemies of "isms." From the forties until disco, it was communism. After 9/11, it was terrorism. The difference is that communism was a real ideology, expressed in state actors. Terrorism is a behavior. Meaning you can accuse anybody of it.

Earl C.

Consider that you have a far greater likelihood of dying in a car accident or even being struck by lightening than being killed in a terrorist attack -- yet the continued state of war is an ongoing justification for giving up liberties....

Frank P.

WAr on terror is an open ended vehicle for control, like the war on drugs, not a real war at all.

Christopher S.

Elliot: See my comments yesterday about the graying of the net activists. Young people engage in clever and radical dissent because they can, risking only (but truly risking) themselves. Old folks typically can't do anything that risks only themselves.

Paul H.

Sorry about noise earlier, were actually fixing sound (or trying)

Frank P.

Christopher, that's kinda insulting

Christopher S.

Frank P: +1 "War on terror" is total bulls**t. But that doesn't mean there aren't bad guys who want to do bad stuff to us.

Christopher S.

Frank P: Which part? That old folks are less "out there" than young?

Frank P.

That

Don M.

Not McVey types of course.

Christopher S.

Frank P: I said "typically" for a reason. I'm not saying there are no graying effective resisters. But by and large and for the most part, younger folks feel and act more free.

Earl C.

Don't forget it was black hand "terrorists" who killed the Austrian duke and started WWI. Don't recall that the threat of such terrorists led to a such an intrusive, pervasive security regime. Lincoln was killed by a terrorist too... but we didn't create the TSA in response.

Christopher S.

Is that even actually controversial?

Christopher S.

Earl: I agree. But Lincoln did suspend habeus corpus, and WWI did lead to horrible anti-sedition laws.

Frank P.

Drone based suspension of habeus corpus

Mike G.

If the government that is being preserved is a government without limits on its ability to punish and kill, remind me why we need to preserve it?

Christopher S.

Frank P +1. I am horribly conflicted about this stuff.

Mike G: For the Children!! <g>

Doc S.

+1 Earl

Mike G.

Chris S., it's for the Children that we might decide to let it die. Or to replace it.

Earl C.

I think Glenn has hit on the key point -- the rationales advanced for all of these actions do not hold together and do not come close to justifying the response. They only hold up if you live in constant fear.

Judi C.

a link re my comment earlier, about wikileaks vs press: http://www.newrepublic.com/article/112554#

Earl C.

The rule of law is a rule of reason. Take away the reason and you have no rule of law.

Judi C.

The Dangerous Logic of the Bradley Manning Case

Christopher S.

Mike G: Right. One could reasonably take the view that our entire reaction to 9/11 was vastly overblown given the scale of actual or even potential damage to the US. The single creepiest thing about our response, to me, was the creation of a department of "Homeland" security.

Don M.

Total Information Awareness.

Mike G.

To me, the infelicity of the word "homeland" is just window dressing.

Earl C.

Agreed! And it will be turned inward... Look at what Hoover did for years.

Frank P.

Das heimat

Papieren bitte

Christopher S.

Mike G: I agree it's window dressing. But it's the loose thread that, if pulled, unravels the whole logic of self-surveillance

Judi C.

so what's to be done now about this?

Mike G.

Don't go there, Frank P.

Frank P.

Heh

Ima lawbreaker

Don M.

The terrorists have won?

Joe P.

Judi C -- throw disinformation into the system

Christopher S.

Judi: I would start with recognizing that the US does not face anything approaching an existential threat from terrorists, Islamic or otherwise. Admit that we have horribly overreacted.

Elliot N.

that difference = the beauty of reddit

Christopher S.

Frank G: it's not everyone who gets to be reminded of Godwin's law, by Godwin himself. Well done!

Sascha M.

ahhhh, the joys of the panopticon.

Earl C.

OBL succeeded beyond his wildest dreams with 9/11 based on our over-reaction. He got us to spend billions needlessly on worthless security measures. On the other hand, perhaps we should thank him for creating the most massive government jobs program since the New Deal...

Judi C.

agree Chris S, the gov and press has horribly overreacted, and continue

Joe P.

Isnt that over-reaction the very point of terrorism?

Christopher S.

On some level our vulnerability to terrorist tactics is just another aspect of globalization. From WWII through mid-1980s we ran the world. Then the rest of the world began to catch up.

Judi C.

we are being terrorized

Christopher S.

Joe: Yes. And a mark of real strength is absorbing, rather than lashing out at, small attacks. It's the difference between being really strong, or just being a bully.

Joe P.

Agreed

Christopher S.

TSA: I always thought that while waiting in line the passengers should get the blurred X-Rays of THE TSA FOLKS DOING THE SCREENING and have a pool as to which image went with which agent. Gamification of security!

Frank P.

I won't ride a stagecoach if the guy with the shotgun isn't riding up top.

Joe P.

But tough to walk that line in our media-saturated global village. Ya dig?

Christopher S.

Joe: Yes. The bullies have been running the playground for a decade or so.

Don M.

Boundaryless war.

Judi C.

Chris S: how do those of us who recognize the imbalance of power address the bullies?

Christopher S.

Judi: Dunno. At a minimum, think clearly about what is happening and don't be cowed. Act prudently.

Judi C.

(without getting beaten up)

Michael W.

The framing of the threat as a fetishization of the Third Reich is something historians will write about in years hence, after we have gone.

Josh G.

Groan...

Christopher S.

What's her URL?

Joe P.

<wow>

Brough

http://kahudes.net/

Frank P.

Thanks Brough

Michael W.

The Internet will not make a particular story have more weight. The stories must still be presented and argued rationally and persuasively.

Michael W.

The Dutch Republic, which was the model for the US, may have been the first.

Elliot N.

we just don't frame the problem properly. at the risk of sounding kooky we need to figure out what comes after the nation-state

Christopher S.

From Seneca Falls to Selma to Stonewall

Michael W.

Bravo, for recognizing there are many victories.

Joe P.

Elliot, or to re-frame, the power battle between trans-national corps. and declining nation-state.

Christopher S.

Nixon was taken down by the FBI.

Michael W.

yes, cointelpro!

Judi C.

Elliot: after nation-state, things are decentralized, networked, agile, adaptable. It's a messy transition.

Don M.

Nixon was taken down by congress.

Christopher S.

Nation-states will continue to exists as long as geography matters. Climate change will emphasize that.

Christopher S.

Don M: Deep Throat was a disgruntled high-level FBI official

Frank P.

Re. Karen Hudes http://blogs.forbes.com/people/lindakozansky/

Michael W.

The FBI saw Nixon as competition, not a threat to democracy.

Don M.

CS: that would be a person. Dean revealed the smoking gun under testimony.

Joe P.

Chris S - climate change also pushes towards some global governance structures, no?

Christopher S.

So they did a good thing for bad reasons. Beggars (and all seekers of good things in actions against entrenched power) can't be choosers...

Joe P: My guess is that there will be individual nation-state responses in mitigation -- seeding the southern oceans with iron ore, putting sulfur compounds into the stratosphere...

Steve W.

Now playing: Brazil

David W.

Chris S. sorry to weigh in so late. Still on my way to the meat space but roe of boomers in disobedience has been on my mind. These guys are fomenting old folks civil disobedience arguing it is easier for us. Don't have to create careers plus we can be more effective - better networks. http://fiftyoverfifty.org/

Steve W.

Now playing: Begin the Beguine

Steve W.

Now playing: You'd be so nice to come home to

Steve W.

Now playing: 'SWonderful

Steve W.

Now playing: Fascinating Rhythm

Steve W.

Now playing: Cheek to cheek

Steve W.

Now playing: The Man I Love

Steve W.

Now playing: Stardust

Now playing: These foolish things

Now playing: Do you know what it means to miss New Orleans?

Steve W.

Now playing: It's been a long, long time

Steve W.

Now playing: Deep purple

Steve W.

Now playing: New World Symphony

Steve W.

Now playing: Smoke gets in your eyes

Christopher S.

F2C 2013 launches, Dow hits new high.

Mary Beth H.

http://www.gwennseemel.com/index.php/news/

Judi C.

Gwenn is awesome. http://gwennseemel.com - check her "social media" and copyright positions. Remarkable.

Don M.

Okeefe?

Christopher M.

Don't forget the musicians are selling discs (physical music) - both studio and live recordings.

Mary Beth H.

Her book "Crime Against Nature" is exquisite. I got a copy yesterday - signed by the artist!

Michael W.

judy Chicago

Christopher S.

Re: bats: Anybody else read "Stellaluna" to their kids?

David W.

Chris S. it's been a few years, but yes

Judi C.

freedom to interpret and reuse!

Michael W.

see.. copyng stands in the National Gallery

David I.

Judi +1

Elliot N.

copyright demons, not gods

they only act like gods and think they are gods

Michael W.

whoa there...copyright law protects your book, and people making t-shirts from your pictures.

Elliot N.

meh. she knows that

Judi C.

her artwork is in the public domain

Gwenn shares freely, openly

Elliot N.

connections not restrictions

and by the way restrictions is more accurate than protections

Michael W.

Judi, that is still her exercising her rights.

Judi C.

camera to Gwenn please?

Elliot N.

unless we are talking in the mafia sense :-)

Judi C.

Michael: yes, she had to choose that stance

it's not the default

Christopher S.

"Johnny Connectivity and the Demons of Copyright"

Michael W.

her framing copyright along with gender and sexuality is a powerful simile

Doc S.

Go to Google or Bing Images and look up Gwenn. Most of what will come up are portraits, and they're all amazing.

Christopher S.

Is it a little scary that American popular culture is so compelling to people everywhere?

David I.

And blue jeans?

Christopher S.

YT, YT

Michael W.

french jeans are better

Doc S.

We do know how to make crap. But we're not alone.

Christopher S.

"Accidental creativity"... I like htat

that's "that"

Michael W.

happy accidents

systeme d

Elliot N.

I can say I understand them, but I do blame them

Judi C.

unintended consequences

Britt B.

Time Warner snowmobilers: We're not scaring the elk. We're out there every day and we never see elk!

Frank P.

+1 Britt

Doc S.

Douglas Trumbell, the movie director who did the special effects for 2001, Close Encounters and much else, told me he doesn't like CGI, but prefers to work with physical models, because "you can be surprised."

Christopher S.

Dancing Badly With Wolves

Michael W.

there are software developers in Seattle that dance just fine

Christopher S.

Oh yeah? Name three... <g>

Christopher M.

"Call me Maybe" videos on YouTube opened my mind to massive desire of people to share culture.

University baseball teams, doing choreography, dancing, and being proud of it shocked me.

Joe P.

the upside of cultural imperialism?

Christopher S.

"Call me Maybe" is so yesterday. Harlem Shake, baby...

Christopher M.

Take that gender stereotypes

Harold F.

Then Time Warner sued the Saudi Tribes for publicly performing the Michigan J Frog dance.

Christopher M.

One of the early supercuts of call me maybe did a better job of representing America than almost any other video I have seen

All manner of people, insane diversity.

Bill O.

Memetics and genetics are cross-pollinating..

Daniel S.

"There’s also no demand for Time Warner to use Open Connect Content Delivery Network so I get Netflix Super HD." http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/27/4036128/time-...

Christopher M.

Oh, and my Senator, Klobuchar, apparently thinks all those peoples should be felons.

Judi C.

Chris M, perhaps you & neighbors need to vote Klobuchar out, eh? Felons, really?

Judi C.

like we don't have enough people in jail already?

activists are on the "early adopter" side of the bell curve, not the middle

Michael W.

we...meaning Ben and the technology business community. But that coomunity has been antogonistic to participitory democracy for years.

Christopher M.

Judi: agree that felons is absurd for uploading lipsyncing video to YouTube. However, hard to support her opponent on this one issue.

Michael W.

Right on, Judi.

Elliot N.

there is a nice connection between this idea and liquid democracy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delegative_democracy

Judi C.

Chris M: time to find new people to run then?

Doc S.

If you want to get over the cynicism of politics, look at the hard work Britt Blaser (present) and friends have been doing with http://bit.ly/XU7OzI and related efforts.

Christopher M.

Judi: In theory I agree... but single issue voters rarely get what they want. I think we need to fix campaign finance to get the right people to want to be in public office.

Judi C.

right, agree

Christopher M.

We really need to make sure our elected officials hear from us on this issue. Ben Huh nailed it. They hear from lobbyists everyday. They should hear from us everyday.

Christopher S.

Is Alexis related to the former California PUC commissioner...?

Doc S.

UVA! Wahoo Wah!

Frank P.

Did you sign the kill cispa petition? https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/stop-...

Doc S.

Thanks, Frank. Just signed and tweeted it with #F2C.

Christopher M.

I loved 300, but disappointed that it killed prospects for movie version of book, "Gates of Fire."

Christopher S.

Mabye it only takes 2 mentions of SOPA to get the point across...

Michael W.

+1

Doc S.

Is that https://disconnect.me on the side of the bus? Cool. #VRM

Brian P.

or no one watches the evening news...

Doc S.

http://www.siliconprairienews.com is cool.

Roy l.

S: no, John Ohanian was shorter and spoke more slowly

Christopher S.

"I make my living off the evening news..."

Son? Nephew? Maybe I just don't appreciate how many Ohanians there are in the world...

Ankit K.

Actually working on the GRM (Government Relationship Management) platform as Alexis speaks. Hard to focus on code while he and Ben have such GREAT talks.

Don M.

Return of Siliwood?

Michael W.

this is all and tiny cognescenti sitting in a circle, looking at itself, talking to itself. This os NOT, IMHO, a substitute to actually gettong ideas out into the mainstrem. Discuss.

Elliot N.

seems fair to me

Margie R.

"Disintermediate"

Doc S.

Jonathan Taplin: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Taplin BTW, USC, where Jonathan works, is hugely tied to Hollywood, as you might guess

A 747. In your FACE! Scary.

Frank P.

Ankit ... release this week? URL?

Ankit K.

you can see the old, ugly one here newgov.us

Michael W.

really?

Christopher S.

Michael W: "this" meaning F2C? Or what Alexis has done? Or, y'know, Life, the Universe and Everything?

Ankit K.

I wanted to publish this pilot for you guys at this conference - you can get a preview at newgovd7.com

Roy l.

S: not his son...John O was a R and apptd by another 'ian (Duke) probably for fundraising in the Fresno area

Ankit K.

that is the development site

Frank P.

Http://newgovd7.com

Doc S.

The clickable link http://newgovd7.com

Ankit K.

thanks, I should have put on the protocol :-)

Margie R.

egad, that white on light purple...

Christopher S.

Kickstarter = virtual patrons

Doc S.

Amanda Palmer has also had a learning experience... http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/culture/2...

Michael W.

chris, Bon to Alexis, to Kickstarter, to SXSW, to Fast Company, to TED, to whatev... gift economy. AHHH, smells like 2000 dot-com boom.. and crash...

Ankit K.

Margie: Yes - sorry for all the ugliness. Working with the designer on the style guide now too.

Doc S.

Looks like Novato.

Joe P.

Rhythm and Blues Foundation active? Anyone know?

still active?

Christopher M.

Lots of people in this room have very good ideas. Amazing what happens when you combine that with the courage to take action.

Chris S. S.

Michael W: Dunno. Maybe we need less "corporate" music and more indie stuff that people voluntarily pay for.

Doc S.

This is like Searching for Sugar Man.

Michael W.

"Hey kids, let's invent the Interne

no

Judi C.

woohoo - funded: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/lesterchamb...

Elliot N.

https://www.sweetrelief.org/

Michael W.

Each generation has to embrace its own discovery of its power. Its heartening, but to move forward, IMHO, we have to stand on each generations's shoulders. not stand on their slippers.

Doc S.

You know the Theory of Moments? This is one of them.

Joe P.

Also--> http://www.rhythm-n-blues.org

Doc S.

The old record industry is the pudding in which "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" is proved.

Elliot N.

woot

Chris S. S.

No pressure or anything, but I just donated to sweet relief. Anybody else in?

Jeff S.

this is so cool.

Doc S.

https://www.sweetrelief.org

Chris S. S.

Thanks Doc.

Michael W.

another 'I was there' F2C moment.

Margie R.

I'm in.

Chris S. S.

Margie R: Awesome! C'mon people! Let's get $1000 to https://www.sweetrelief.org/ before he leaves the stage!!!

Or is $1000 too little?

Britt B.

https://www.sweetrelief.org/program/lester-cham...

Chris S. S.

Britt, you in?

Judi C.

dancing in the office in Calif...

Britt B.

Just did $100.

Standing ovation is hard when entering a CC # ;-)

Chris S. S.

Britt, you totally rock!!!

Britt B.

et vous?

Chris S. S.

C'mon people. This is a "money where your mouth is" (or maybe, "money where your mouse is") moment.

Don M.

I'm in.

Chris S. S.

More than you did, Britt, but I'm a big-time lawyer... <g>

Britt B.

It's not bragging when we're priming the pump.

Chris S. S.

Don, you rock too.

$500

Chris S. S.

C'mon people. $10 at a time. $20. Let's get there.

Rollie C.

i am recovering lawyer, so a smaller amount than CS, but I'm on board

Chris S. S.

Rollie, you are awesome.

Ankit K.

I've got $50 coming in

Britt B.

I'm a big time human. added another $100.

Mitsuko H.

I just gave. Best use of the free wi-fi yet.

Britt B.

You call this free?

Judi C.

I'm in too

Chris S. S.

Go go go go go

Mitsuko H.

Britt. You're so literal :)

Chris S. S.

Let's bankrupt Alex!!!

Doc S.

give us the link again.

Harold F.

OK, add me for $25.

Chris S. S.

https://www.sweetrelief.org/

Elliot N.

bleh. only merkins can donate

Brough

+ $50

David W.

I'm in ($100) to Lester's fund https://www.sweetrelief.org/program/lester-cham...

Britt B.

Everybody tweet the Alexis match, at <https://www.sweetrelief.org/program/lester-cham...;.

Chris S. S.

You guys are all awesome. This is great...

Frank P.

Me 2 $100

Benjamin C.

In for $25

Chris S. S.

Keep it up guys!!!

Judi C.

I donated to the cancer fund in Lester's name, a humble $20

David C.

$25

Chris S. S.

Humble, nothing! Every bit helps.

Mary Beth H.

In $25

Judi C.

with huge thanks for all the Chambers Brothers-inspired hip movin' I did back in the day

Jeff S.

$15 from a jobless college kid

Chris S. S.

Personal note: My grandfather, who I never knew, was a musician in St. Louis in the 40's. Died before I was born. And my son wants to be, too.

So musicians resonate with me.

Steve W.

Now playing: The Eye of the Tiger (thanks to Dewayne Hendricks)

Judi C.

hey jobless college kid: what's your interest? what would you like to do?

Judi C.

(F2C is also about networking.)

Steve W.

Now playing: Rubber Ducky

Chris S. S.

Thank you to everyone who jumped in. This is what these things are for.

Frank P.

Just wondering, did anybody else get tears in their eyes during the Curtis Mayfield number?

Steve W.

Now playing: Sentimental Journey

Chris S. S.

Busted.

Jeff S.

Judi: thinking about starting a fiber network in Ithaca, NY. Exploring muni vs interdependent ISP paths

(and generally trying to figure out what to do with my life)

Doc S.

Man, I'm TRYING to donate, but I keep getting a "card error." Grr....

Steve W.

Now playing: It's alright with me

Judi C.

if we can share stories, let me know. litsanleandro.com is a project I'm working with. Also make sure to shake hands with Chris Savage and Jim Baller, two of my heros

Fumi Y.

Added $100. (Doc, I had card error too, changing the cards worked.)

Steve W.

Now playing: Always

Jeff S.

Anyone know if Jim Baller is here today?

And Judi: I just recently read about lit San Leandro. Seems that good things are happening in the Bay area :)

Judi C.

Yes!

fiber!

Steve W.

This just in: +$200 from Terri

Now playing: Quiet Nights

Steve W.

Now playing: If I Fell

Now playing: Here, there, and everywhere

Steve W.

Now playing: It might at well be spring

Judi C.

Steve, it's a wonder that you know the names of all of these tunes.

Steve W.

(Except not this one.)

Judi C.

is ok, I can't hear it anyway

Steve W.

:-)

Daniel S.

Parallel universe: Rodriguez Seeks Lost Royalties From Albums Sold Overseas While He Lived In Obscurity http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/23/rodrig...

Judi C.

interesting. The stories will be told, but not by the industry that works so hard to protect itself.

Mike W.

Google services should not require real names: Vint Cerf http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/05/us-go...

Steve W.

Now playing: Saints go marching

Steve W.

Now playing: One-note Samba

Judi C.

musicians lookin' sharp!

Judi C.

interested in hearing what the OTHER Chris S has to say in this session. I have an android phone.

Harold F.

Thank you Mistress Cate Monster!

BTW, that was from Avenue Q.

Michael W.

Finally.

Harold F.

Go to YouTube and watch original. Is funny.

How old is it . . .

Doc S.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/antispam-legis...

Harold F.

She is disappointed in our lack of culture.

Doc S.

Save the Fucking Internet

Doc S.

"Nothing attracts a crowd like a horny crowd." - Mistress Clarissa

Michael W.

She said digital. Hehe

Frank P.

Did she say "digital goods?

Harold F.

how far back does online porn go? It was active in the alt.sex hierarchy and alt.binaries when I was on Usenet in 1985.

Michael W.

Yep!

Doc S.

I once designed a logo for a company Digital Tools. It consisted of a 1 flanked by two smaller zeros: o1o . They didn't like it.

Harold F.

Doc +1

Michael W.

Wait til she shows you SL

Doc S.

Aren't all dildos digital, in a sense?

Michael W.

The joy of discovery is everlasting, Doc.

Mitsuko H.

Doc S. Dildos can be analog. Vibrators are digital. Soft molded plastics are the HD of their times.

Frank P.

Did she say "erecting barriers?"

Chris S. S.

Internet and porn: http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/1996-01-24/

Chris S. S.

Re: control :: Neal Stevenson :: Cryptonomicon :: The dreaded ECC

Harold F.

The Internet Is For Porn from Avenue Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rByGEPPJfYA

Michael W.

Porn can be used for control also.

Doc S.

These are the days of miracle and wonder.. this is the long distance call... Paul Simon

Chris S. S.

the long distance call to NPA-976-XXXX

Frank P.

900 5551212

Harold F.

867-5309

Chris S. S.

Ghetto-izing "dial-a-porn" was one of my tasks at the phone company, back in the day,

Judi C.

how is it that so many in the F2C audience have these phone numbers?

Harold F.

.xxx One speaker's ghetto is another's shopping mall.

Chris S. S.

We are a vigorous, active group notwithstanding our age...

Frank P.

Worked for BofA

Judi C.

Mistress C has a whole lot of inside jokes embedded in her talk. wow.

Michael W.

Where is SL?

Chris S. S.

SL?

Harold F.

Secure socket layer?

Aleecia

Tough act to follow :-)

Michael W.

!!!!

Doc S.

Isn't Second Life primarily inhabited by people living out their sexual fantasies.

Chris S. S.

OK, Mike, pressure is on...

Doc S.

How many of us want Mike to call us nazis, just for fun?

Harold F.

I don't know of any musicals about Godwin's Law.

You know who else supported porn? Nazis.

Aleecia

Fortunately musical creation isn't subject to Rule 34

Chris S. S.

http://xkcd.com/261/

Doc S.

Let's take up a collection to have Clarissa do a pornographic musical version of Godwin's Law.

Chris S. S.

Call me anything, but don't call me a Nazi?

Frank P.

+1

Elliot N.

lester chambers can do the musical soundtrack

Elliot N.

Harold Feld: the producers is about godwin's law, no?

Michael W.

Chris, I haven't used the n word today. Yet.

Aleecia

Winter for Poland and France.

Frank P.

Michael, does that make you a nazi nazi?

Chris S. S.

http://hipsterhitler.com/

Frank P.

+1

Michael W.

A really interesting case.

Chris S. S.

From time out of mind -- since hunter-gatherer days -- you could leave your old tribe, go over the hills and far away, and start over again as a stranger. Now you can't.

Michael W.

Na.....

Aleecia

"I have a tick about German murderers trying to erase history. It's like a hot button for me."

Michael W.

This is a good case for discussion.... Per Tim Wu's book

Mary Beth H.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward_Cunningham - Founder of the wiki. Great story about how he did it. Lives in Portland area. Great guy.

Michael W.

Another situation where meatspace is incongruent with the digital world.

Chris S. S.

French like to go on strike, and wear black!

Bunga Bunga

Elliot N.

the fbi letter http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/us/20...

Mike G.

I hope I followed Mistress Clarissa okay. Lord knows I couldn't lead her.

Chris S. S.

You were great. You should have sung something, though. <g>

Elliot N.

Ting <3 tethering :-)

Michael W.

And not just VZ. Tmobile did it too 5 years ago.

Elliot N.

cdma carriers sometimes solder gsm slots in phones (galaxy s3 for example)

Christopher M.

Very excited to get my Ting phone and tether. Screw you hotels with pricey slow Wi-Fi

Michael W.

How often will this crap repeat itself?

Chris S. S.

Michael W: which crap? Efforts by devices-sellers to control us?

Michael W.

Disabling features. Argh!

Harold F.

I keep forgetting this is news to most people.

Levi M.

Elliot what does the soldering accomplish?

Jane C.

I have the ATT&T name on my iPhone

Chris S. S.

I buy a phone with [x] new features. I don't realize that it should be [x+k]

Harold F.

And we have been pushing for Wireless Carterfone since 2007. But FCC too wussy to do right thing.

Chris S. S.

So is the choice being controlled by Apple (cf. J. Zittrain, The Future of the Internet) or being controlled by carriers?

Aleecia

Great graphic!

Levi M.

Chris S, you can get a Nexus and be controlled by Google!

Harold F.

Mind you, wireless carriers dislike doing updates because it uses capacity -- which they want to charge users for.

Michael W.

It depends. Sometime it is both.

Harold F.

Bandwidth caps are a serious security threat.

Mike W.

when my carrier wouldnt update my Android phone, i complained until I got out of my contract (and got to keep my phone)

Aleecia

Harold +1

Chris S. S.

Why not download at 3:00 a.m.?

I mean, this can't be a technical issue, can it?

Elliot N.

there can be a bit of a technical issue with drivers and such

Ankit K.

I once upgraded and my phone stopped working like a phone.

Elliot N.

but it is WAY too slow and the "testing" is WAY too rigorous

Levi M.

It takes them months to pack all of their bloat-ware into the new AndroidOS versions

Elliot N.

Ankit Kapasi: was it an iphone?

Harold F.

Actually, carriers immune to prosecution from Federal Trade Commission.

Mitsuko H.

How come there was never a Spiderwoman or Spidergirl comic figure?

Ankit K.

Nope - Android of course.

Harold F.

There was a Spider Woman comic book.

Christopher M.

In 10 years, will we need national wireless carriers?

Harold F.

Spider Woman was out on west coast, had different origin.

Ankit K.

Planned obsolences?

Michael W.

The comic overlords at Marvel control our superheroes.

Ankit K.

Every 2 years you need to get a new one...

Charles P.

Why can't we be allowed to update our own phones?

Ankit K.

You can if you jailbreak

Doc S.

Chris was also the co-creator of Do Not Track, btw.

Aleecia

Why can't we be allowed to actually own our own phones?

Christopher M.

Sascha just happens to live in DC

or near it... I dunno

Harold F.

I know, it makes me sad. :-(

Ankit K.

I purchase w/o the subsidy to maintain my grandfathered rates/features. I believe I come pretty close to 99% control.

Chris S. S.

Aleecia: The technical issue is that there is lots of interaction between a wireless phone and the network itself, much more so than between a landline phone and the landline network.

Mitsuko H.

Speaking of Public Enemy, Hank Shocklee has a great daily twitter stream @Shocklee. Great mix of social policy and

Hip hop coolness

Christopher M.

in 1999, Indymedia pioneering open publishing in part, as I understood it, because they ran out of time to code the ability to vet submitted material

The system was called "active"

Michael W.

I was there!

Like Zelig

Eric N.

couldn't you just throw away the pringles?

Christopher M.

Eric N. has just lost his mind

Brough

Chris, Aleecia note that the intense interaction between the client device and the LTE (or other mobile) network is almost entirely confined to a core HW/SW module. The actual operating systems (IOS, Android, etc.) and everything above it (including) apps, are independent of whether the phone is operating on LTE, 3G, WiFi or bluetooth.

Aleecia

@Christopher S. - Ah, that was actually just snark, rather than a genuine question. Sorry, I know I ask enough basic questions (most f2c topics are not my area of focus -- though pr0n goes hand-in-hand with privacy.) Yes, there are radio interference issues etc.

Chris S. S.

Brough: Yes. My note was re: why wireless devices are treated in a different way than lanline

That's "landline"

Aleecia: no worries. Mostly the hard-core-telecom-infrastructure stuff I do isn't relevant to anything, so I'm always looking for ways to brng it up

Brough

And my note is that there could be a hard line between the small portion of the phone which must be controlled by the LTE network operator, and the vast majority of what is in a modern Smartphone.

Michael W.

Completely free, boys and girls, dogs and cats, the whole Kahuna. Concord! San Juan Hill! Coxey's Army!

Chris S. S.

Politically right now the wireless guys are the darlings of the FCC. To a first approximation wireless works. Wireless has taken over the voice market, and wireless is credibly competitive so they can justify nonregulation.

So further regulation of wireless not likely.

Michael W.

Jailbreak your phone, or the terrorists win.

Aleecia

I'm looking forward to how Mozilla's phones work out. All HTML 5, including the dialer app.

Chris S. S.

Jailbreak your phone...for the children

Michael W.

And she is above average

Chris S. S.

Sascha is channeling Bob Frankston ... ambient connectivity.

Ankit K.

Doc?

Michael W.

Imagie living in most of this country, where the don't have internet, and they don't even have mobile phones.

Aleecia

"Piracy is the price we pay to live in a free society"

Michael W.

He drank Mark Cooper's kool aid

Christopher M.

Were the ingredients listed?

Michael W.

It's full of courage...and freedom!

He he he

Of course... Not enforceable in the US.

Aleecia

well, we are signatories to have of what was in the UDHR

Aleecia

we get: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Cove...

Aleecia

we don't get: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Cove...

Doc S.

Sorry, dropped out while I was busy uploading Lester Chambers photos shot a few minutes ago. They'll appear at http://flickr.com/photos/docsearls Enjoy.

Aleecia

(truncation not useful there. first is for ICPR, second is for ICESCR)

Chris S. S.

Unstoppable force :: immovable object:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/02/21/118856...#

Margie R.

is there a link to this developer resource?

Eric N.

https://commotionwireless.net/ ?

James V.

The release isn't out yet, so no link yet

Michael W.

http://www.article19.org/data/files/pdfs/analys...

Doc S.

Here's the photo set of the Lester and Dylan Chambers performance: http://www.flickr.com/photos/docsearls/sets/721... I'll add more later, and the rest of F2C as well. Just wanted to get these up while they're fresh.

Ankit K.

Is there a link where we can wait and check back at?>

Thomas G.

We are in final phases of the release, builds of this first developer release will be available this week.

Michael W.

It's a big planet. There is room for everyone.

Thomas G.

https://commotionwireless.net/download

The developer release will show up there when ready.

Ankit K.

Thanks

Mary Beth H.

Nice photos. Thanks Doc

Frank P.

Hope the aspen institute doesn't sue David

Actionable steps... sounds very legal

Michael W.

My opinion is this will be where the action is next ten years.

Frank P.

Freedom loving... hmmm, heard tha

Michael W.

Aspen is vey grabby....and dominated by the bitlords.

Frank P.

I think the action agenda will revolve around fresh water

Michael W.

Fresh water will never be free until it is all privately owned.

Frank P.

Good point

Joe P.

Fresh water nazis?

Frank P.

Watch it, you could get busted

Joe P.

or fresh-water-boarded!

Frank P.

Better than saline, I'm told

Michael W.

My point is simply that there is a large NGO community that operates as coin operated think tanks to promulgate a free market propertization theory of distribution, of which Aspen is a main platform. They advocate for propertizing water in the third world to increase distribution, and the sale of national telecoms to investors. Sorry,l but I don't agree with all these solutions.

Christopher M.

Michael W: Scourge of the VERY SERIOUS PEOPLE

Frank P.

Me 2

Agree with michael... not a scourge though, retired from scourging

Christopher M.

As one of many orgs operating on a shoestring budget, I'm horrified at the NGO's described by Michael W.

And then to think of the shoestring operations that have had to close down for lack of funding.

Eric N.

Mexico telecom market makes US telecom market look like Swedish telecom market!

Christopher M.

Whenever I see the Fred S. enters or leaves the room, I picture Fred Savage.

Fred S.

Fred seigneur

Chris S. S.

And whenever I picture Fred Savage, I picture Peter Falk, and Wesley, and Buttercup...

Christopher M.

Stop rhyming, I mean it!

Chris S. S.

Roses are red, violets are blue, some poems rhyme, and some of 'em don't

Michael W.

If Mexican taxpayers subsidize telecom investment, should they retain an equity stake in those companies?

Fred S.

These are indeed the wonder years

Chris S. S.

Michael W: that would be too simple

Christopher M.

FINALLY, I can write Blah Blah Blah and not be insulting

Frank P.

Private public partnership used to mean business plus gov or community

Elliot N.

the bastards!

(those who censor of course)

Frank P.

NOt

NOT private funds plus stock based corporation

Doc S.

Computers can fart, it seems.

Elliot N.

what country was this?

Doc S.

Stanistan.

Eric N.

backchannel projector down?

Chris S. S.

Trashkanistan?

Elliot N.

who needs the projector! backchannel, now with more snark!

Frank P.

Who are these guys really??

Chris S. S.

Only those of us actually back-chanelling can see each other!

Eric N.

taken out by snipers? wow

Frank P.

I think they should drop F2C and go with WTF

Doc S.

Just because it's not on the big screen doesn't mean this isn't going on your permanent record.

Elliot N.

it is the Internet. CISPA says it is ALL on the permanent record

Frank P.

Omg, now everyone will know!!

Lorelei K.

but do you have chocolate?

Elliot N.

now that the backchannel is truly a backchannel I can take out my chocolate!

Lorelei K.

Switzerland=Toblerone

Elliot N.

crypto cat is cool. I think we used it for backchannel here last year

Frank P.

Goes on forever though

Aleecia

seemed more like nyan cat for a moment there

Michael W.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/borowitzr...

More interesting news!

Doc S.

Me: "I hate Prezi." EN: "Prezi is like a quadruple lutz: you've gotta land it."

Frank P.

That's it... got my cats confused

Aleecia

Michael Weisman - Scalia, what a charmer!

Eric N.

FIRST

Christopher M.

Hey, I got a cool video also about community networks - spread it around! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_emb...

Steve W.

Now playing: I remember April and you

Judi C.

Awesome video Chris M

Aleecia

oh, nice transition there (musically)

Steve W.

Now playing: Tequilla

Now playing: Lady Be Good

Judi C.

Thank you Steve for the ongoing song identification.

Steve W.

Now playing: April Showers

Judi Clark: My pleasure!

Steve W.

Now playing: Carolina in the Morning

Steve W.

Now playing: Sentimental Journey

Steve W.

Now playing: Humoresque

Steve W.

Now playing: Flight of the Bumblebee

Judi C.

woooooooo

(holding lighter up)

Chris S. S.

I'd like to email aleecia something. Aleecia, if you're on, email me

thanks...

Chris S. S.

Or if somebody can email me aleecia's email...

Steve W.

Now playing: Killing me softly with his song

Jane C.

Actually I can see a resemblance to Hank Marvin ...

Aleecia

aleecia@aleecia.com

or aleecia@stanford.edu works too

Chris S. S.

Well, THAT's pretty effing obvious... <g>

Steve W.

Now dancing: Swan Lake

Chris S. S.

Screw Swan Lake, I want Giselle!!

Judi C.

lol

Steve W.

Now playing: A Fifth of Beethoven

Judi C.

can I get a shot of that?

Steve W.

You can have a double.

Aleecia

Or you can have a double time

Judi C.

if I could only get MY work done this fast.

Judi C.

wooohoooo. holding lighter up again.

(and wondering how much latency between the notes and the remote viewing)

Steve W.

There's an app for that

Judi C.

http://www.thoughtworks.com/

Judi C.

https://ting.com/ -- check out their "BYOD" program

Chris S. S.

The latest Ting...

Christopher M.

Vote with your dollars in web domains - hover.com

Judi C.

haha

Christopher M.

Elliot also does Hover.com is what I am saying

Judi C.

http://www.ctctechnologies.com/

Harold F.

Elliot Noss, Vint Cerf, I'm having an ICANN flashback.

Christopher M.

Joanne doesn't sleep - has done tremendous things to force DC to work with local gov rather than steamrolling

Aleecia

"Bigger than Google," didn't that get The Beatles in trouble?

Mary Beth H.

http://www.ctcnet.us/

Christopher M.

Speaking of which... I'm hearing that GA HB 282 to limit local Internet investment will be on House Floor on Thursday

Chris S. S.

Intellectual Property is neither.

Don M.

http://www.icann.org/en/groups/board/cerf.htm

Judi C.

+1 Chris S

Jeff S.

Each ISP has a different policy regarding what happens after the 6th strike.

Judi C.

are all of the ISPs required to track strikes in the first place?

Lorelei K.

CISPA is already out there

Levi M.

Judi, there is no law requiring it

ACLU Chris S.

I have a pending lawsuit over the communications between Victoria Espinel (the copyright czar) and the rightsholders during the negotiations over 6-strikes. Soghoian v. OMB. I think it is the only lawsuit related to 6-strikes

Christopher M.

Correction: 2014 is election for all of House and 1/3 of Senate...

Levi M.

but it may be part of the private deal with IP owners

Judi C.

thx Levi, I know a couple of smaller ISPs who will not likely be tracking

Christopher M.

Levi: are you in the room or remote?

David I.

Christopher S +100

Lorelei K.

exactly the same bill introduced by M McCaul, TX

Levi M.

The burden, legally, is presently on the rights holder to track 'violations'

Chris M, I am here

ACLU Chris S.

I crowdsourced the funding of Soghoian v. OMB via donations sourced through indiegogo. Glenn Greenwald was one of many who donated a few bucks to make it happen. AFAIK, only crowdsourced FOIA lawsuit ever too.

Christopher M.

Levi: Sorry I haven't bumped into you

Levi M.

Green sweater, glasses.

David I.

Christopher S. What's the url for your croudsource

ACLU Chris S.

This is where I raised the funds. I'm good now. Don't need any more cash: http://www.indiegogo.com/Help-Chris-sue-DOJ-to-...

Christopher M.

Regarding USPS, it doesn't help that Congress has put unique burden on it to prepay health care costs in the way no other entity does.

Lorelei K.

yes but USPS should re brand itself as civic communication hubs for the 21st century

Christopher M.

Also that USPS is prohibited from entering into other ventures as is common in rest of world.

Don M.

One more brick in the privatization wall.

Christopher M.

Not making an argument, just noting that USPS problems are complicated

Lorelei K.

use the post offices--which are emotional attachments for people--as hubs...before Starbucks gets them

Michael W.

I think that service exists already.

Eric N.

USPS also constricted in its ability to raise its prices

Lorelei K.

the federal govt owns the real estate i.e. taxpayers...we should make them part of a big resilience campaign (this is a huge meme in national security btw, that is completely re framing the guns vs. butter debate)

Harold F.

Vint is correct. We would never have tolerated ITU asserting jurisdiction over unsolicited phone calls or harassing phone calls.

Aleecia

The ITU needs another hobby. Until they find something else to do, they have to shift our way

Frank P.

ALeecia +1

Michael W.

You have to have Gigi smuggle it out

Earl C.

Yes, and the US Internet community bears a good portion of the blame for spreading the confusion about transmission versus content. The IP is special crowd deliberately conflated applications and transmission, and the ITU debacle is the result.

Michael W.

Good point Earl. Very frustrating.

Don M.

IP vs IP?!

Lorelei K.

he's so right on this. I've been to 2 events and the premise is "digital Pearl Harbor"

Paul H.

Vint Cerf Backs Anonymous Web Surfing

Lorelei K.

is partly because the policy people are not technically informed

Earl C.

Internet Protocol, not intellectual property. Another point the crowd has conflated.

Christopher M.

Earl, can you explain a little more?

David I.

Anonymous Web surfing is easy. In Safari just "turn on provate browsing"

Aleecia

Um.

David I.

private browsing

ACLU Chris S.

The default Android browser only gets updates when Android gets an OS update, thus, rarely or never. Your mobile browser on Android is likely very out of date.

David I.

And use Tor.

Frank P.

In chrome just open an incognito tab

Chris S. S.

How do I know when I've spent enough time worrying about the Turing halting problem?

Don M.

Call Google?

ACLU Chris S.

Although Google Mail, Maps, YouTube and other Android apps get updates through the Play Store, the browser only gets updated with Android OS.

David I.

And avoid govts that do tor spoofing.

Lorelei K.

cyber safety is good, so is cyber humanitarian

Frank P.

Christopher download chrome from the play store for free

ACLU Chris S.

You need Android 4.0 for Chrome. Only 40% of Android devices have 4.0 or a more recent version of the OS.

Chris S. S.

"Cybersecurity" means you call the police when your house is on fire. Hmm. I like it.

Ankit K.

Yeah, very good one.

Chris S. S.

Ack! Christopher S. ambiguity! I'll sign things "Chris S." and everybody will know...

Aleecia

Too bad many of the CERTs were de-funded rather than improved

Lorelei K.

this language maps parallel to where other big strategic conversations are going i.e. civilian security at state and critical infrastrcture at DoD. the cyber conversation is binary right now and needs to change

Earl C.

Thank the VoIP operators and the "don't regulate the Internet" message of the past 15 years -- lots of people argued Internet access is an information service rather than a transmission service in order to preserve arbitrage models, etc. At the time no one was talking about regulating any content or services on the Internet (other than porn), the issue was access to the underlying transmission. But the IP is special mantra conflated applications and transmission, with the result that the underlying networks became increasingly unregulated. To wit, now at the ITU, because there is no agreement that the Internet is the next generation global transmission network and that IP is a transmission protocol, people have removed the firewall between transmission and content that used to exist in the old telephone/telegraph network world.

Ankit K.

I'm going to add this to my slide deck that I give to local community orgs about Internet Security. I get CISSP credits.

Don M.

new business for Goog?

Lorelei K.

how about DHS grants? instead of body armor

Aleecia

(of course volunteer v. for pay doesn't fix the "starting fires or putting them out" fear)

Paul H.

Christopher S. - then don't use Android browser - try Chrome, or FF, Dolphin, Opera....

ACLU Chris S.

DHS has given out grants to Stanford+Coverity find security flaws in open source software before.

Chris S. S.

The FCC deemed "information services" to be unregulated back in the 1980s (then called "enhanced services") in order to PROTECT THOSE MARKETS from the big monopolistic Bell companies. But during the Bush years the scope was expanded just as the former Bell companies were getting into the area, IN ORDER TO ALLOW THEM TO ESCAPE REGULATION. Go figure. -- Chris S.

Levi M.

The same way Google made institutional mail servers obsolete and wiped out SPAM email, they could thwart network threats on a large scale with the right initiative.

ACLU Chris S.

Paul H: Most consumers stick with defaults (see: Nudge by Sunstein/Thaler). If OS providers are going to include a default browser, it should be secure.

Frank P.

Wet componentry

Levi M.

first they need to fix security update lag on Android, though

ACLU Chris S.

Google today started including National Security Letters in their transparency report. First company to do so. Hell yeah.

Frank P.

Couldn't google buy the NSA and route straight through these concerns?

Chris S. S.

Anonymity issue interesting: almost forces you to avoid ad hominem analysis, focus on merits.

David I.

Anonymity is an important feature of communication! If you doubt that watch Eben Moglen's F2C2012 talk!

ACLU Chris S.

Eric Schmidt: "If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6e7wfDHzew

Earl C.

Hmmm. Google is "critical infrastructure" -- not sure I like the sound of that. I operators of mail servers and large data mining / storage operations need to take responsibility for offering greater security, but I think it needs to remain a competitive market. Creating too big to fail or critical infrastructure companies in the web space creates even greater vulnerability. I think the approach Peter Cochrane outlined yesterday is a better approach....

Frank P.

And the post office... buy that and run it for the gov

David I.

ACLU Chris S -- Good, ask Vint what he thinks of that!

Aleecia

I think we just got the answer: in some cases he agrees, in others he disagrees. Actually a fair and reasonable way of looking at this, IMHO.

Judi C.

re Eric Schmidt's statement, there are many things we don't want to share with anyone (dressing in private, use of credit cards and bank accts, intimate conversations & pillow talk). We should not be doing those? Uh...

Chris S. S.

There's a guy who SAYS he's named David, and another guy who SAYS he's named Vint...

The song's name is called "Haddock's Eyes"

Lorelei K.

this commitment testing and reputation supply chain kind of thinking is so imp and interesting

Chris S. S.

Lorelei: And such a pain in the neck! Not that it isn't important in some cases, but in others it's not...

Harold F.

There was, unfortunately, a lot of this crap at WCIT.

Aleecia

Real name policy for google plus?

Lorelei K.

I'm thinking about it in the context of information and access to power

Christopher M.

Earl: I was thinking about that at first too... I think of Google as critical infra in same way as manufacturer of parts for electric grid, for instance. Can be replaced without too much trouble... ideally

Harold F.

Demands from world govs to identify and end online anonymity.

Frank P.

Aleecia are people still hung up on that?

Aleecia

ICANN is on the brink of making sure there are no anon domain registrations

Judi C.

where are the freedom boxes, Sascha's mesh networks, and other citizen-level networking tools?

Chris S. S.

There are some contexts where we need to know who we are dealing with (or to advertise ourselves) and some where we want to not.

Chris S. S.

Big Time TV

Frank P.

Chris s s the default for g+ seems to be reality and/or truth

Aleecia

Frank, was glad to hear Google as an entity does not require one corporate view of identity. But with CFAA back top of mind, yes, there are discussions of how using a non-real name could be a felony.

Christopher M.

I learned how to create web sites by studying the html code (back with HTML 1, it was easier). Kept me away from flash.

Earl C.

And why is anyone surprised about that? There were no anonymous central offices in the old days either. In general you want people to identify themselves for the basic reason that you want payment. People found ways to make anonymous calls by using public pay phones, internet cafes, etc. Perhaps if people stopped trumpeting the Internet as a means of overthrowing the powers that be, the governments would pay less attention to it.

Chris S. S.

Earl C: it actually could be a way to overthrow the powers that be, though...

ACLU Chris S.

There are national state attacks. And some of the biggest ones have been the work of the US government.

Levi M.

Earl, 2nd amendment activists use the same argument and have been pretty successful at keeping guns in their hands

Frank P.

Had to look up cfaa https://ilt.eff.org/index.php/Computer_Fraud_an...

Chris S. S.

ACLU Chris S. If we are going to (e.g.) be in conflict with Iran I'd rather do it with Stuxnet than with boots on the ground.

Josh G.

And the Chinese aren't the only culprits: http://www.thenation.com/blog/173167/chinese-ha...

Earl C.

People overthrow the powers that be. The Internet is just one tool in the toolbox.

Levi M.

But perhaps the powers that be know that the argument is futile. The Internet is far more powerful than an armed society.

Chris S. S.

Earl C. Fair point

Lorelei K.

this is such a high wire act--the state dept is funding circumvention technology, for example and the DoD is looking at ways to defeat non attribution

Chris S. S.

Levi M I hope you are rights

Aleecia

CFAA being what Aaron ran into, which is why it's back in the limelight.

Christopher M.

What are Vint's machines doing??

Frank P.

I prefer just to open a manhole near the central officeand use an ax or a chainsaw

Chris S. S.

IOW cyber-insecurity is an auto-immune disorder

Levi M.

If the founders were writing the constitution today you can bet the second amendment would be the "freedom to connect" not the "right to bear arms"

Christopher M.

Frank P: the real reason cable MSOs want to keep their paths secret. They piss off a lot of people with axes and chainsaws.

Lorelei K.

back in 1999 there was a parallel conversation about retaliation and deterrence with Chemical and bio and nuclear...is useful for reference

Frank P.

Is there a market for all those amps hanging on the poles?

Lorelei K.

big push back against using the nuclear threat for Chem or Bio...

David I.

Spectrum rethinking is one of the great issues for a future F2C!

Christopher M.

+1

Lorelei K.

oooh, bigfoot as Icarus

Harold F.

+10

Michael W.

DAB

Paul H.

Chrises: Fine, maybe Google should pull browser from oS, but OS still insecure; much rather see carriers update that!

David I.

We skipped it this year b/c the best spkrs on this were not available for these dates.

Michael W.

digital radio mondiale

ACLU Chris S.

I'd rather the carriers not control the updates at all. They've demonstrated that they're not willing to take the responsibility seriously.

Christopher M.

FM, AM, PM, the list goes on

Chris S. S.

David I Spectrum rethinking means intangible right in spectrum isn't "property." What are you, a communist? <g>

Frank P.

Aleecia thanx for cfaa perspective. I thought aaron's case revolved around prosecutorial misconduct and didn't pat any attention to the law they were perverting

James V.

Carriers have no incentive to do updates. If the software on your device is aging, the solution from their POV is buy a new device.

Levi M.

The FCC is waaay behind the curve on spread spectrum

Earl C.

Ah, once again the wireless nirvana solution comes to the fore. Without access to the wired infrastructure the availability of spectrum is a sideshow.

David I.

Very very new ways of modulating spectrum better.

Lorelei K.

Again, somehow we need to bridge the gap between technical knowledge and language and policy knowledge

Michael W.

http://www.drm.org/

Eric N.

Earl C. +1

Christopher M.

Earl, I think you would be hard press to find anyone disagrees in this room

Harold F.

Auctions are the crack cocaine of public policy.

Frank P.

Where is david reed when we need a backchannel spectrum rant?

David I.

Policy "knowledge" dates back to early 1900s

Aleecia

Someone mentioned Ed Felten yesterday. He's also speaking out against CFAA because it makes security research fraught. There's a lot going on to try to improve the law.

Earl C.

"Don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain" roared the Wizard.

Michael W.

Saw this five years ago. The receivers are already for sale?

Joe P.

+1 Harold

Brough

There's also a lot of spectrum that the mobile operators don't want (yet) which we might be able to get access to and actually utilize in the next 5-10 years, http://blogs.broughturner.com/2011/10/valuing-t...

Chris S. S.

See, Vint wants to make money from taxation of businesses. He's a communist too. <g>

Michael W.

Did you know your FM radio won't work outside the US in a few years?

Lorelei K.

my colleague Tim Maurer at OTI is doing some great writing on this civilian-military balance challenge for cyber: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/02/0...

Levi M.

Why Michael W?

Michael W.

But those vans parked out front are a bother...

DRM has been adopted as the worldwide standard. Analog FM is already phased out many places.

Christopher M.

Yay for demonstrations!

Michael W.

Buy a new radio, Vint.

Christopher M.

He is actually teaching a course at Hogwarts

Frank P.

+1

Levi M.

As a society, we aren't conflicted ...

Michael W.

The right to be forgotten...

Levi M.

... we decided which we'd rather have

Aleecia

There are two versions of the right to be forgotten in France, both translated to that one phrase in english.

Aleecia

One basically comes down to "delete data" and the other basically comes down to "delink data." Google would have more work to do if that second path goes anywhere.

Of course, we already do that today. We just do it for IP owners.

Michael W.

http://www.drm.org/?page_id=19. This tells you when your FM radio will die.

That's what I'm talking about...interplanetary!

Earl C.

30 GHz or 60 Ghz -- dissipation in 1/2 mile = greater cost to build out. So, this policy translates into lots of wasted dollars for new entrants to expend and fail on while the incumbents point to them as competition while keeping the better spectrum that allows lower cost networks.

Levi M.

I like that DRM radio is open

Aleecia

ObPlug for Wendy's http://chillingeffects.org/

Chris S. S.

Somebody has to figure out how to get email to Musk when he ends up on Mars...

Christopher M.

Earl: Only if we let oxygen get in the way. Think outside the box, man!

Aleecia

p0wn to 0wn

Eric N.

why isn't increased cost to build out a network on higher frequencies internalized in the cost of the spectrum itself?

Brough

Earl C: very different behaviour between 30 GHz and 60 GHz (and in between). I'll get you a propagation chart if you are interested. But read: http://blogs.broughturner.com/2011/10/valuing-t... first.

Harold F.

Value of high band spectrum is real. Put there is also value in low-band spectrum. Should not be either/or.

Eric N.

+1 for Vint Cerf's 3-piece suit

Earl C.

Thinking outside the box is fine -- just don't fool yourself into ignoring the difficulties that are the reason that those solutions are "outside the box" The world is full of smart people, and most outside the box solutions have been thought of before. But then again, every once in a while the blind pig gets the acorn that fell outside the box, so it is always worth snuffling around. Just recognize that you may starve in doing so.

Frank P.

+1 for the fact that he can easily button the vest.

Levi M.

But they would find those bugs anyway, even without the Google challenge

Brough

Thanks Earl, but my problem is starvation, it's more like reducing my cookie intake...

Chris S. S.

"Defense against the Dark Arts"

Brough

isn't

Brough

And only two rings were ever used

Christopher M.

This conference rocks. Imagine hearing this exchange anywhere else.

Brough

like only two levels of priority are ever used in 90% of corporate networks.

Earl C.

Has anyone done a study to see to what extent the data gathering / tracking that Google and other Internet advertisers do on consumers create vulnerabilities that hackers can exploit? If the data collection / tracking were not allowed, would that close any security gaps?

Michael W.

Well of course...

Lorelei K.

but here's the problem, most people, even those with nerd aspirations, can only understand about 40% of this conversation

I aspire to this conversation

Brough

new version of CP Snow's thesis?

Judi C.

so when does Zero Day really happen?

Michael W.

Sorry Judi, it was last week.

Judi C.

oh darn...

Christopher M.

Zero Day (Mark Russinovich) was okay, but Daniel Suarez's books are far superior

Lorelei K.

isn't there an escalation criteria for this type of deterrence and warfare? anybody?

Christopher M.

Daemon, Freedom TM, and the recent "Kill Decision" are fun reads for many in this audience.

http://thedaemon.com/

Aleecia

Earl, depends on what you mean by vulnerabilities and security. Let's look at Vint's own group, "Badware is software that fundamentally disregards a user’s choice about how his or her computer or network connection will be used." Does tracking fundamentally differ from this defn?

Michael W.

The Man in the High Castle.....PK Dick

Michael W.

Bitrot

Joe P.

Dare I mention Eudora?

Lorelei K.

pangs of nostalgia

Eudora!

Christopher M.

Google has a solution for this: https://mail.google.com/mail/help/paper/index.html

Joe P.

Still in use as we speak

Christopher M.

The paper archive is brilliant!

Judi C.

I have a website from the mid-90s that I can't update because using newer tech is too complicated, can't do what old school cgi continues to do for me.

Earl C.

Lots of applications collect data about how they are used, mostly for the benefit of data mining by Google and others who are interested in creating user profiles to better target paid products to the user. That data about use (location, time, user ID, websites visited, etc) all requires code to access other information on the user device. I am not enough of a technical expert / code writer to say exactly what vulnerabilities the data collection activities might open, but it seems logical that the more complicated the code and the greater number of points of information the code accesses and then broadcasts from the device, the greater opportunity for a hacker to find unprotected information that could be useful and /or gain access under pretext to other information stored on the device.

Lorelei K.

a software bank, sort of like a DNA seed bank...I think its in the Arctic Circle

Judi C.

BIG KUDOS and appreciation to Paul, Paul and the video team!

Christopher M.

Thank you DAVID I!!!!

Judi C.

also thanks to Wesley for on-site tech support

Aleecia

+1 thanks David!

Steve W.

Now playing: I'll see you in my dreams

Now playing: Midnight in Moscow

Now playing: It don't mean a thing (if it ain't got that swing)

F2C Backchannel — Tuesday, March 5

F2C Backchannel

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