F2C 2009 Group Chat — Tuesday, March 31

← Monday, March 30

Mar 31
12:10 AM
Dean L.
has entered the room
Mar 31
12:15 AM
Rafael D.
has left the room
Jim Y.
has entered the room
Mar 31
12:20 AM
Dean L.
has left the room
Mar 31
12:30 AM
Jim Y.
has left the room
Mar 31
6:55 AM
Stage
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Mar 31
7:30 AM
David B.
has left the room
Mar 31
7:45 AM
Ken D.
has entered the room
Mar 31
7:50 AM
David B.
has entered the room
David B.
morning Ken
Judi C.
has entered the room
Judi C.
good morning world
Ken D.
Good morning David,
Ken D.
Good Morning Judi,
Deb C.
has entered the room
Mar 31
8:00 AM
AKMA A.
has entered the room
Mar 31
8:10 AM
Ken D.
Judi, Still no luck getting either the video or the audio streamed here and I spent a good hour playing with it last night and again this morning.
Mar 31
8:15 AM
Ken D.
I have installed VLC on two different Windows systems and still get the same error - stream cannot be located.
Mar 31
8:20 AM
Judi C.
Ken, my experience in Windows is so very limited that I'm afraid I'm of little help. I had the audio stream working in iTunes (streaming radio station) and on VLC, but I'm on a mac.
Judi C.
do you have iTunes for Windows?
Judi C.
(and if so, did you try streaming through that?)
Alex G.
has entered the room
Alex G.
completely off topic: FDA says to avoid pistachios amid salmonella scare http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090331/ap_on_…
Mar 31
8:25 AM
Ken D.
No, no iTunes here. I use Linux and my wife and son still use Windows. Neither if them want iTunes installed on their systems.
Judi C.
can't say I blame them. Kind of like installing Real Player on my mac.
Ken D.
Windows is even worse from the standpoint that every time you add something else in you know you are twisting Windows one more turn.
Judi C.
What error are you getting with VLC? We've confirmed that works on Windows
Ken D.
Too bad this isn't being recorded in 10 minute chunks and being put up on YouTube,
Ken D.
The possible proliferation of this material as well as the exposure for F2C would be well worth the effort.
David B.
VLC is working fine on the macintosh, oddly not working at all via quicktime
Ken D.
And that way the "rest of us" could at least view this very valuable material in a time-shifted manner.
Mar 31
8:30 AM
Ken D.
I assume you are saying that from at the event?
David B.
no, i am not at the event
Ken D.
Did you all get Static IPs this year as you did last year?
Marvin G.
has entered the room
Ken D.
Oh, yuo are remote?
Ken D.
Cool.
David B.
yes, remote
Ken D.
What are you using for the url and your port setting?
Deb C.
has left the room
Ken D.
Maybe I can crosscheck
Judi C.
translating our videos to flash is a time consuming procedure
Judi C.
technical "learning curve" in the first session means our recordings are incomplete
Judi C.
turned off guest access
Dan A.
has entered the room
Genny P.
has entered the room
David B.
udp/rtp 1234
Rafael D.
has entered the room
Mar 31
8:35 AM
Ken D.
That's the default port that I have too.
Genny P.
So there is no audio or video???
Ken D. 
Your input can't be opened:
VLC is unable to open the MRL 'udp://@odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp'. Check the log for details.
Ken D.
No, most people (?) are able to receive both audio and video, there's just a few of us that can't for some unknown reason.
Don J.
has entered the room
Genny P.
Well I guess I am "few of us" There is an audio only feed?
Alex G.
VZ and AT*T hate the stimulus: They’re urging the government not to help other companies compete with them through broadband grants or to set new conditions on how Internet access should be provided.
Ken D.
Yes, there is, let me see if I can dig up the URL from yesterday
Alex G.
Judi C.
is not udp, proper protocol is rtsp://odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp
Brett G.
has entered the room
Ken D.
Here is my VLC log entry - if this is any help in troubleshooting this down...
Ken D. 
main error: Cannot resolve odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp port 1234 : Name or service not known
access_udp error: cannot open socket
main error: open of `udp://@odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp' failed: could not create access
Mar 31
8:40 AM
Robb T.
has entered the room
Judi C.
please open the URL in Quicktime (File -> Open URL)
Deb C.
has entered the room
Brett G.
G'mornin'.
Anders F.
has entered the room
Brett G.
Yawn.
Brough T.
has entered the room
Brett G.
Stretch.
Micah S.
has entered the room
Bob F.
has entered the room
Jim B.
has entered the room
SLW
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David W.
has entered the room
David W.
has left the room
Bob F.
Are we going to be hearing to Broad Band play soon?
David W.
has entered the room
Genny P.
I just keep getting time out errors
Brett G.
BTW, if any municipality wants a truly sustainable PRIVATELY run network that creates jobs and serves a much larger area than just the town, gimme a call. brett (at) lariat.net. (Shameless plug)
Dirk
has entered the room
Doc S.
has entered the room
Justin H.
has entered the room
David W.
Busier than a one armed paperhanger, I believe
Lynn H.
has entered the room
Doc S.
The credits sound like band names.
Dean L.
has entered the room
Doc S.
I like "Juan Webday."
Lynn S.
has entered the room
Justin H.
don't worry, Brett, I'm totally dropping you a line as soon as I get back to my hamlet
Philip R.
has entered the room
Shmuel F.
has entered the room
Doc S.
John & crew has changed <i>my</i> life.
Glenn S.
has entered the room
AKMA A.
Wouldn't it be something like "Guebdé"?
Brett G.
Musicians use lots of fibers....
Brett G.
Mic!
Hilarie C.
has entered the room
David Y.
has entered the room
Mar 31
8:45 AM
Frans-Anton
has entered the room
David W.
Hits on "John Jurgenson" at The PirateBay: 0.
AKMA A.
Cause it's Jorgenson
David W.
did i spell it wrong?
Michael W.
has entered the room
Bob F.
What's the URL?
AKMA A.
johnjorgenson.com?
Michael W.
Seedies?
Doc S.
John has playhed with Elton John, Luciano Pavorotti, Bonnie Raitt... the list is *very* long. And nobody flat-picks faster.
Jeff
has entered the room
Doc S.
Brett G.
Piracy has killed record sales, though. The Beatles (which were mostly a recording band) never could have made it if they'd started now.
David W.
Spelled right: 3 hits. One is for a Peter Frampton album. Did John play with him??
Justin H.
Our band leader is also in the movies: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0430397/
Michael W.
Bela Fleck and the Flecktones
David W.
PS: Yes, I did buy a JJ CD yesterday.
Jeff
Playing as Django Reinhardt, did they digitally remove a finger?
Doc S.
A post-piracy, post-apple business model for music (but starting with public broadcsting): http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/projectvrm/PayChoice . Open to help here. It's early, but we're gonna do it.
Steve S.
has entered the room
kwerb
has entered the room
Brett G.
Doc: JP Barlow was touting something like that 10 years ago.... Did not go anywhere
shep
has entered the room
Doc S.
I want to hear David (the I) on the "stupid grid." Seriously.
Erik C.
has entered the room
Mar 31
8:50 AM
JoePlotkin
has entered the room
Brett G.
"App rising?" Is that what happens if you put too much yeast in your code?
Bob F.
Yes -- the grid should be stupid though electric flows are more problematic than bit flows.
Doc S.
Brett, that was 10 years ago, and that was Barlow.
Jean R.
has entered the room
Dean L.
Judi C, please check guest access on the chat...some here not able to get aboard
Herman W.
has entered the room
Bob F.
But fiber hasn't proven as an effective wa to prevent colon cancer
Doc S.
If you've never seen any fiber, can you believe in it? Just asking.
Doc S.
James! Who was *great* the last time he was here. Just reminding y'all.
Jeff
Got fiber?
Catherine M.
has entered the room
David W.
John Jorgenson: HOT, CROWDED with notes, FLATpicking.
Erik C.
Pay attention to FERC & particularly how SmartGrid will be funded. http://www.ferc.gov/news/news-releases/200…
Brett G.
Get Foobar Fiber! Great for anything that ails ya....
AKMA A.
Lawrence K.
has entered the room
Bob F.
Lots of hot air from Wall St
Aleecia M.
has entered the room
Michael W.
Maybe he should just sit down.
Jeff
Thanks, AKMA. That's a lot of pens!
Doc S.
Did I hear "global wierding?"
Michael W.
The failure to remand Republicans to prison
Bob F.
Soylent Green!
AKMA A.
The pens are a side attraction
Jen G.
has entered the room
Brett G.
Gotta get rid of alla them pesky PEOPLE.
Doc S.
Pens? Did we lose an 'i' in there?
Jeff
Soylent Green is FIBER!
Mar 31
8:55 AM
Michael W.
Georgia remains unreconstructed. Turner encourages renewed federal intervention and occupation.
John S.
has entered the room
Michael W.
The good part: many of those unborn or dying wull be Republicans
Brett G.
If your population is declining, you're NOT necessarily i decline.
Brett G.
i s/b in
David W.
Hey, Michael W, some of my best friends are Republicans!
David W.
Well, not really. But they could be.
David B.
some of my best imaginary friends are ....
isen
has entered the room
John S.
Alert: Don't be lulled by this good-ole-boy presentation of self...
Michael W.
Democrats should not be allowed to be wealthy
Justin H.
what's the opposite of Northeastern Smug?
David W.
isenberg +1
David B.
VLC has a superb psychedelic distortion feature :)
Brett G.
Southeastern smog?
Dean L.
turned on guest access
Bob F.
What is a smart grid?
iz
has entered the room
Michael W.
I believe I live on Planet Earth. When did that become a debateable point?
David W.
Given a choice, I'd much rather beat a dead horse. The live one's feel pain. And kick.
Aleecia M.
A bunch of small cars arranged in a matrix
Steve S.
Prius
Brett G.
A cooking utensil that turns itself off before it burns the house down?
Alex G.
or we're new yorkers who never learned how to drive
Erik C.
I recycle air.
Bob F.
The devil is in the details -- please tell me more about the smart grid --- if the smart network is a bad idea why should we assume a smart grid is the right architecture?
Micah S.
Wow, a lot of throat-clearing to this talk
Erik C.
He recycles sound.
Doc S.
Erik, please step outside when you do that.
AKMA A.
A lot of it is plugged-in power bricks
Mar 31
9:00 AM
Dean L.
Micah: ahem!
Mar 31
9:00 AM
iz
so global warming is a big fat lie as long as it harms my energy business, but as soon as I can use it to promote my energy business I am climbing aboard the global warming wagon! All Aboard!
Erik C.
I guess I need a carbon allowance.
Brett G.
Aleecia: I thought that was called a "parking lot" ;-)
Doc S.
... unless you want to use it as a combustible.
Bob F.
USB will replace the power bricks
AKMA A.
Is there a keyboard equivalent to throat-clearing?
Justin H.
...
Brett G.
[AHEM]
Erik C.
Dean L.
AKMA: ctrl-alt-dl
Doc S.
We love you, James.
JoePlotkin
its a chat not a blog
Bob F.
What about all the new Chinese drivers?
Alex G.
then doha will eat the savings for lunch
Micah S.
AKMA, yes, it's the first two paragraphs of whatever post or essay you're drafting
David W.
He's right! Let's all leave! To save the planet!
Alex G.
Erik -- yes the methane up north is scary
Erik C.
It is terrifying.
Bob F.
Remember the Indonesia fires? Even a month later you could smell it all over Singapore.
David W.
Three videos at once. Must be a Mac.
Micah S.
still throat clearing
Brett G.
Hey! I'm saving energy! (Even though I'm using three PCs right now: one for the video, one for the chat, and one to watch my network and do some accounting and payroll)
Justin H.
I could smell the Georgia fires in Charleston, SC
JoePlotkin
wake me when he says something we dont already know
David W.
Great photo.
Doc S.
And contrails. A high percentage of high altitude clouds are spread-out contrails.
Steve S.
could have saved some time if he asked that before he gave the intro ...
Tony A.
has entered the room
Nathaniel J.
has entered the room
Doc S.
These guys are paranoid and wrong about The Gummint Conspiracy, but ... they're onto (if not also on) something. http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm
Bob F.
A smart meter? Is that one that is simply able to let you query the settings digitally? Seems reasonable in any case.
Judi C.
David W, his 3 vids at once are actually running on a PC.
Judi C.
win media files.
Michael W.
ignorance is bliss i guess
Erik C.
For every 100mgw wind power you have to build 100mgw gas-fired power
Michael W.
number one in ignorance?
David W.
Judi, what you say may be physically possible, but it is metaphysically impossible. Therefore, I reluctantly reject your reality.
Jeff
I filmed for 5 days after September 11th. Not a contrail in the sky for 5 days.
Erik C.
Cap and trade is access charges for environment - regulatory lawyers love it. I'm forming a new group ..Reg Attys for Trade & Cap - RATC. K St? Help me here.
Bob F.
OK, but I want the technical details of the smart grid not the sales pitch.
Michael W.
Ain't?
David W.
So, Jeff, terrorism is your answer to global warming? Someone call HLS!
Brett G.
Definitely bringing lots of wind to the equation.
Jeff
Reality is for people who can't handle the smart grid.
Mar 31
9:05 AM
Bob F.
yes Eric -- that's my concern -- a carbon regulatorium.
Michael W.
What we need to do is raise the educational level in the US
Doc S.
Erik C.
Bob F - go to DOE or FERC for tech details
Dan A.
Score one for Fiber....
Bob F.
That's silo thinking -- we soudl be talking about wirelss or fiber for smart meters. They shoudl be fungible bits over a generic transport. It's the mention of fiber that misses the big idea!
JoePlotkin
smart grid vs. stupid network? Discuss . . .
Alex G.
RichardatDELL Dell’s 11th generation servers with latest Intel Xeon 5500 series processors http://bit.ly/15oVNk features include embedded system mgmt..
Erik C.
Nope - none of the energy cos will roll out fiber - they only want BPL - all of the smart grid guys - like Tendril - run kilobits over SCADA
Bob F.
Shouldn't be talkinab out fiber I meant
Doc S.
One of my many brothers-in-law has a big solar panel farm behind his house. His meter is dumb, but at least it runs backwards during daylight.
Brett G.
Maybe we should be making CARBON fiber and taking it out of the environment.
Michael W.
this is really old technology he is peddling
iz
has left the room
isen
turned off guest access
Bob F.
Let's not abuse a real problem to sell shiny glass.
Costas T.
has entered the room
Erik C.
SCADA is ancient
Don J.
no reason we need to build a new network to read the meters in any home that today gets broadband. Just plug into that
christian A.
has entered the room
Michael W.
he is trying to sell you the technology that has already been kiboshed. that is why no one is doing it anymore
David W.
Michael W., what's the newer tech he should be peddling? (non-snarky question)
Don J.
I'm all for getting fiber to my home too, but we don't have to have that to read our meters
Brett G.
Utilities don't trust you not to tamper with the data if you use your own connection
tim
has entered the room
Bob F.
OK, so reducing use saves money but I want to understand how the solution works beyond using it as an excuse to monger fiber.
Dean L.
turned on guest access
Steve S.
is that a quadrillion?
David Y.
Don J. - Agree, consumer broadband for meters/appliances in the home. Commercial wireless for network elements in the electric grid.
iz
has entered the room
Doc S.
Just put lots of conduit in your home, and to the curb. Then pull whatever.
Brett G.
And you can hardly blame them, with energy prices as high as they are.
Don J.
They should use an encrypted VPN tunnel ....
leon j.
has entered the room
Erik C.
Transmission grid is a POS; also costs $1m / mile to develop; 6 months to build wind; 6 years to build transmission grid to get to it.
Micah S.
Great resource for figuring out your own energy profile: http://www.wattzon.com
Alex G.
tax on air conditioning
Bob F.
Turn off vs being smart? So why not talk about smarter ways to make homes more comfortable such as managing air flows?
iz
how come I am the only one who gets kicked out of chat when someone turns off guest access? I'm confused.
Jeff
Just changed my water heater. 60 dollars less per month.
JoePlotkin
Cold showers for America, you patriots!
Justin H.
my old roommate advocates the water heater thing.... he says he saves a ton in electricity
Brett G.
Someone will find a way to hack any encryption scheme that is used.... Too much money in it.
Michael W.
The grid needs to be upgraded for both capacity and safety. That will permit us to bring low carbon energy from where it is 'produced' to where it is needed
Justin H.
only turns it on when he needs it
AKMA A.
Guests kick the host out? That's not right, iz
Erik C.
Here's some cool smart grid for you: http://www.tendrilinc.com/
Micah S.
Shower together to reduce global warming, joe!
iz
did everyone else log in to get on here?
Alex G.
iz maybe need to talk to judi about how you logged on
Bob F.
But this is the same smart network sales pitch. Tell me more about the software architcture at the edge? Who does the congtrol and define the polichy. Does PG&E shut off my A/C for me or give me information.
Alex G.
did you get an e-mail?
Michael W.
smart meters don't result in changes to consumer behavior. They are 20 yrs old
Bob F.
Again -- this is Ma Bell or Ma Power controlling me.
iz
no peeking while I am in the shower!
Norman J.
has entered the room
Doc S.
Read John McPhee's Coal Train, either in The New Yorker or in his book, Uncommon Carriers. Great writing, and not a political statement in it. Just facts. http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/10/0…
Brett G.
We've saved money with "flash" water heaters. Trouble is, they can't handle two showers simultaneously.
Michael W.
What he is really peddling is the techno equiv of 'clean coal'
David S.
has entered the room
iz
alex - no
JoePlotkin
no pee(k)ing in the shower iz?
Bob F.
The potential is big but the architcture is broken. That's what we shoudl be talking about.
Alex G.
iz maybe talk to judi during break?
Don J.
There is no bottom up "internet style" implementation plan for smart meters.
Aleecia M.
Demand side management in Long Island: http://www.m2mcomm.com/projects/keyspan/index.html
Mar 31
9:10 AM
iz
i don't log in, I just type url and it works. so everyone else has logged in apparently?
Ken D.
has left the room
Herman W.
has left the room
Doc S.
Georgia has many of the largest coal-fired power plants in the world.
Micah S.
TMI, Joe
iz
has left the room
isen
turned off guest access
AKMA A.
I logged in, yes
Don J.
It is all Top Down, centrally planned.
Nick G.
has entered the room
Don J.
I cannot buy a smart meter and install on my house
Steve S.
Hey, David I just /kick 'ed Iz
Brett G.
I have plenty of neighbors who are running their meters backward using solar.... Trouble is, the panels are so expensive that payback is 15 years out.
Doc S.
Judi C.
If anyone got access to the chat without logging in, please note: we had to turn off "guest" access
Alex G.
as i suggested, taxing air conditioning
Bob F.
OK, so why not make the appliances network devices so there can be a market for policies? Where is the learning fromt he Internet?
Don J.
I have to wait for PG&E to come up with some humongous plan that will provide it for "free" (HAH) to me, in 10 years.
Brett G.
And by then the panels begin to weaken....
Dean L.
David I -- reason to turn off guest access . . .other than to ice out Iz?
Justin H.
people respond to money
Michael W.
The extension of his argument is that we don't need to regulate coal plants, we don't need to change the ownership of transmission lines, we don't need to require the investor owned utilities to upgrade their plant for safety or efficiency
Bob F.
WHat about storing "cold" in a water tank so it can be relesed at peak. That's system thinking.
Erik C.
Smart Grid is going to be nuclear - uranium rights being bought up all over the west; wind transmission will be a front for nuclear transmission - Carbon Basin WY -->> PHX, LA, etc.
Don J.
Tendril stuff is cool. You can't buy it and use it yourself.
Judi C.
was not for purpose of icing Iz. Guest access had unintended consequences that needed to be limited
Judi C.
Iz has an account and can log in
Judi C.
We're not purposely icing anyone that's registered
Erik C.
Don J. Agreed - Tendril is old telecom / software app meets energy.
Alex G.
"nuclear is fossil fuel on crack" http://www.internetnews.com/hardware/artic…
Bob F.
Why should a smart grid cost anything if it's done at the edge?
Jeff
Isn't crack bad?
Michael W.
notice how he makes the lowest carbon energy look like it is the most expensive
Brett G.
Ironically, a lot of things which people think of as "waste" really aren't. For example, if you leave the lights on, it doesn't waste energy because you spend more heating your house if you don't.
Alex G.
yes, jeff
Brett G.
So, it's a wash.
Doc S.
Brett, I've been told that the trouble with solar panels in Wyoming (the kind that are motorized to angle toward the sun through the day) is the high winds there. (Where I have heard, that "a Wyoming weathervane is an anvil on a chain.") But that prices and building methods are improving.
JoePlotkin
IPv6 so all our appliances get addresses?
Erik C.
Coal is nature's original carbon sequestration; look at what the world looked like in the million years before coal - it wasn't pretty; then coal; then life. Now burn 100 railcars full of it per day per 500mgw plant.
Alex G.
actually, I'd like to put the money into FDIC and PBGF
David S.
$2,500 for smart grid? Why not incorporate it into the cost of FTTH, or wireless?
isen
Iz -- please log in to chat from your Campfire Invitation
Bob F.
WHy fiber -- that's stuid -- you are onlyu using a few bits per HOUR -- so why wwiat for fiber. You can use any bit path. Stop talking about fiber -- it's a red herring!
Brett G.
Actually, the wind in Wyoming helps. It cleans off the panels after a snow.
David W.
All my utilities have Facebook accounts.
Judith H.
has entered the room
AKMA A.
My refrigerator twitters David's toaster all day
Alex G.
every node in the smart grid must tweet
Bob F.
This is a sales pitch for fiber with the environment being an excuse
Brett G.
Yes, I do.
Alex G.
yes bob f
Steve S.
we're not a conference, we're an obstacle
Mar 31
9:15 AM
Bob F.
The problem is not the lack of itneroperable standars -- the problem is in the supposed need for standards rather than open interfaces that can evolve to standars -- taht's the lesson of the Internet.
David W.
@davidsMicrowave: Hello Twitterverse! Time for breakfast! I hate my life.
Michael W.
gubmint the problem... well, obviously
Alex G.
a republican asking for govt policies?
Don J.
The internet didn't happened because a central authority delivered it to us. Smart Grid isn't going to happen that way either. Need to let individuals make the investment, and reap the benefits.
Jim B.
has left the room
Bob F.
SOrry -- I saw all this more than a decade ago and no leraning has occured.
Brett G.
I'm surprised that he's so keen on fiber if he's into energy efficiency. Fiber takes much, MUCH more energy to bury than wireless takes to install.
Erik C.
Want stats on all of this? Go here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/s…
Aleecia M.
Fiber also requires power on both ends. I haven't seen any talk about how much more power fiber uses. If there are ways to do smart grids over POTS that sounds like a win. Not that I don't want fiber... but I have yet to hear a compelling reason why fiber is required.
Micah S.
When the light hits Salter just the right way, does he look like George W. Bush?
Bob F.
How many bps (or bits per hour) do you need for this?
Doc S.
Years required to make coal ready for mining: 40-359 million. Mnutes required to burn a rail car of coal: 8.
Genny P.
Central authority - the Internet was run by the Department of Defense for 20 years. Then it was run by NSF. Yes, there was a central authority.
Don J.
Several people on my street put solar panels on their roof, a big motivation for them was to show their kids that they are trying to help. A few hundred dollars for a smart meter is far smaller investment
Erik C.
The 7 things that make grids smart. So says the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission: http://www.ferc.gov/industries/electric/in…
Jim B.
has entered the room
JoePlotkin
Micah- kinda.
Bob F.
The Internet PROTOTYPE was funded but the future will be decentralized.
Alex G.
7 things you can do today to make your grid smarter in less than a minute
Michael W.
that is what they said about it... in 1985
Steve S.
Yes Don, why can the utilities let us buy meters that authenticate in, and let us bring our own broadband to the table
Doc S.
BobF, hearing a decade ago and experiencing now might make a difference in learning for everybody else.
Brett G.
The Internet was designed not to have a central authority. The backbones were initially centralized due to scarcity but now are not.
David S.
Bob F - what about ICANN? When and how does it disappear and decentralize?
Brett G.
Reading power meters will require more bandwidth over time?
Bob F.
Why shoudl the grid people do their own network. That shows a failure to undersatnd the concept of the "public Internet" or bit commons. this is mroe aout EPRI wanting to get our of the power distribution business.
Drew
has entered the room
Lawrence K.
Question for James: Given the difficulty of getting consensus, what is the smallest unit that makes sense? Can a small state, for example effectively become a smart grid state?
John S.
Don't be fooled by his aw shucks Cajun thing either....
Brett G.
The smart gree-yud. ;-)
David W.
I'm confused. What exactly _should_ we be fooled by?
Alex G.
Lafayette needs a dome to prepare for the flood
Drew
Drew Clark here ... follow our posts of Freedom to Connect sessions here at http://broadbandcensus.com ...
Justin H.
America lags behind in our cell phone stucture because our national system is ad hoc versus the European or Asian networks that were put in by monopolistic cell companies
Bob F.
Poles or olls?
Bob F.
Poles or Polls?
Brett G.
Po-wools.
Bob F.
Fiber for the utility system? BPS?
Mar 31
9:20 AM
Alex G.
if you don't understand the English, just hit SAP and listen to it in French
Doc S.
I used to watch KATC, Channel 3, from Lafayette... in Chapel Hill, NC, thanks to e-layer ionospheric "skip" on hot summer afternoons. There were ads in French.
Justin H.
Shoutout to Microwave!
John S.
@ David W. Be fooled by smooth talking politically connected guys. :-)
Bob F.
Here I have some sympathy for the regualtory problems they face -- the rationale thing is fungible connectivity rather than fiber for a purpose. But that lesson also applies to the architecture for connectivity
Judi C.
Iz, I just sent you a new invite
Paul H.
has entered the room
Isabel W.
has entered the room
David W.
Will do, John. Thanks! :)
Brett G.
Such government projects are a bad idea because they take government's business away from private providers. In many less populous areas, the government is the biggest customer, so you no longer have the cash flow to build out.
Costas T.
has left the room
Bob F.
We need to be VERY careful about confusing the electricity and bits. One is a consumable taht is to be distributed and the other is about talking among us.
Isabel W.
that seemed unduly difficult for some reason.
Bob F.
Define "broadband".
Brett G.
In short, these projects harm efforts to provide ubiquitous broadband coverage.
Doc S.
Justin, are there any cell phone companies outside the U.S. that offer unlimited data plans?
Bob F.
Has there been any effort to challenge the definition of "telefcommunications services"?
Justin H.
That I don't know, but my point was about how we would face similar problems with smart grid standards
Doc S.
Which projects, Brett? Ones like Lafayette, or the power projects like James was talking about. Just looking for clarification here. (Suffering from continuous partial attention, I am.)
MaryBeth H.
has entered the room
Brett G.
Technically, "broadband" equals "frequency division multiplexing over a medium, usually coaxial cable." But it has come to mean high speed ata service.
Brett G.
ata s/b data
Brett G.
Doc: Government data projects in general tend to do this.
Mar 31
9:25 AM
Aleecia M.
Disclaimer: I do not have full understanding of technical details. However, what I'm hearing from classmates is that the physical properties of the electric grid requires central planning. If small power sources (say, solar, wind) are added to the grid improperly you can wind up with something that sounded to me like interference waves, and take down the grid. Something like this has happened in practice outside the US. Again, sorry for the lack of technical depth, but there is a real issue here, I just lack the knowledge to do more than flag it.
Doc S.
I would distinguish between different forms of government.
Dirk
So is at last known how much Mrs Naquin received?
Stig
has entered the room
Bob F.
If you could get 7-0 from the Supreme Court that's wonderful -- but I'd like to think that this effort could've gotten more leverage by challenging the restrictions on "telecom" [sic].
Erik C.
lawyers were paid, of course, out of the public rate base and, as always in the public interest; it's why you can't run a public utility w/ a private entity - you put "private property" in charge of "public property" to serve public interest but "private property" is defined as that which is not "public property". Thus, regulation. Go figure.
Doc S.
When there are no Bretts to step forward and do a private build-out, and the other private providers are duopolists with no interest in Internet connectivity, and citizens are looking for a way to get that connectivity, muni may be the only way.
Brett G.
Wyoming just passed a law making municipal broadband a last resort. But it didn't stop the Powell project.... A shame.
Brett G.
An intentionally anticompetitive strategy.
Bob F.
Now I need to ask the businss model. To what extent does the funding depend on revenue from Cable and TV? What if you don't get any money from those services?
Brett G.
Undercut private enterprise using taxpayer money.
Bob F.
Can you assume connectivity wired or wireless or is it a subscription model?
David S.
Wyoming's legislation expressly enacted the "Powell way," despite efforts by incumbents to stop the project through negative legislation
Bob F.
Why not take a different approach -- provide fungible connectivity and let any number of third parties use teh paths like they use the roads to provide video content (AKA cable)?
Doc S.
The problem with LUS and other munis (some but not all) is that the Internet is seen as "beyond" TV and telephony. It's still "triple play." This is a case where current market demand subordinates the long-term purposes, which are any and all, rather than just those first two.
Brett G.
Powell is a disaster. It prevented my ISP and many others from ever offering service in Powell (even though we wanted to). It thus harmed consumer choice.
David S.
Brett G - no taxpayer money involved in the Powell project
Bob F.
Does that mean that Wyoming and provide fungible connectivity as basic infrastructure?
Isabel W.
doc, that website you pointed to with the jetstreams is too hard for me to parse. Is there evidence that the clouds from airplanes are causing global warming?
David S.
Powell issued a public RFP open to all providers . . .the opportunity was there
Brett G.
The Powell project involves GOBS of taxpayer money. The network gets ALL of the city's business. This removes a major customer from the marketplace.
Genny P.
Does the person who posts the most win some type of prize?
Richard B.
has entered the room
Mar 31
9:30 AM
David W.
Presumably, Doc, LUS was being sensitive to current market demands that wants TV and phones first. That's how they justified the deployment. No?
Justin H.
they get invited to all the best parties
Alex G.
name of the alcatel-lucent product?
Doc S.
David W, Yes.
Brett G.
Among other things, Powell refused to entertain any proposal that wasn't fiber and refused to look at carriers that weren't ILECs.
Erik C.
IT'S ALREADY MA SMARTGRID; JUST OUT FROM FERC "Smart grid investments that demonstrate system security and compliance with Commission-approved Reliability Standards, the ability to be Upgraded, and other specified criteria will be eligible for ***timely rate recovery** and other **rate treatments.*** http://www.ferc.gov/industries/electric/in…
Bob F.
Competitor -- if there is 100mbps per customers why don't the "competitors" use the common distribution system.
Doc S.
Not the only way, but the main one. But there persists legacy DNA that is, in some fundamental ways, not much different than that of other carriers.
David W.
Yes, but where's the flux capacitor?
Bob F.
David W -- the problem is not so much giving peopel that cable they want as depending on that market for funding which makes them far more like a telco than basic infrastructure you can assume.
Shmuel F.
Again, is it possible to get any of his or other speakers PPT?
Bob F.
This looks like FiOS.
Alex G.
lafayette population in 2000 110,275 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lafayette,_Louisiana
Justin H.
Do you get HD with coax?
tim
another new network doing RF overlay - wow!
Alex G.
c. 30,000 households
Alex G.
I would guess
David W.
So, I'd like to hear Brett's question about the funding breakdown from TV, telephony and Net...
Erik C.
David W. see FERG regs for interconnection of flux capacitor and other innovations w/ electric grid; studies underway.
Brett G.
Actually, it was Bob F who asked. But it is a good question.
Bob F.
Wouldn't it make sense to do a wire-indifferent system with fiber for speed but with wireless as backup?
Brett G.
Bob: You're obviously laboring under the misapprehension that fiber is faster than wireles.
Doc S.
My FiOS ONT says (as I recall), "Internet" (RJ-45 and co-ax), "TV" (co-ax) and "POTS" (RJ-11). My router is hooked up to the ONT via legacy Comcast co-ax. Our landline was connected (before we dropped it, along with TV) via original 1924 cotton-wrapped solid copper pair.
Brett G.
wireles s/b wireless
David S.
Bob F +++
Alex G.
nice features -- minute pricing looks high
Mar 31
9:35 AM
Brett G.
BTW, Motorola Canopy is one of the SLOWER wireless implementations.... David I should have looked at other technologies before abandoning it for fiber. ;-)
Bob F.
how is this differnt than any other telco?
Jeff
Brett: What is your price for 50Mbps?
Steve S.
5c per min LD?!?!?
Doc S.
That's 10mb better than FiOS, for $20 less per month.
Doc S.
Can you put anybody's set top box on there?
David W.
What determines the price?
Jim B.
To Bob F: As you know, under Louisiana law, the LUS network must pay for itself out of project revenues, with no taxpayer subsidies. As a result, there was no way to pay for the network without offering services.
David S.
I don't argue for abandonment, just the realization the the entire wireless spectrum can be replicated within each fiber
shep
seems like most of the revenue is from TV, hmm
David W.
(And sorry, Bob F, but I always get you and Brett G. confused. I'm sure you can see why. [???])
Doc S.
Are business and home rates the same at LUS?
David S.
Wireless cannot self-replicate, no matter which technology it uses
Erik C.
Steve S. 5 cents for LD - come on!! It's LONG distance - those voice bits get real tired; costs a lot for the hay to feed them. Man, what century are you living in?
David W.
OMG, can fiber self-replicate? Shouldn't we alert the CDC?
Brett G.
Jeff: Depends upon how you define "50 Mbps." We don't charge for local loop bandwidth but do have to charge for backbone bandwidth, which wholesales here for $100 per Mbps per month. This is a cost that has nothing to do with the last mile.
Doc S.
It's good that he lists his three plays starting with Internet.
Bob F.
T-mobile is $10/month unlimited for landline for subscribers
David S.
Jim B - just to point out something you already know, similar problems exist in many other states, thanks to anti-muni legislation
tim
Shep: maybe but internet is the real margin service, very little on TV
Bob F.
Yes -- anti muni regulations are an issue that must be addressed. The other problem is modeling munis on bells.
Brett G.
Our residential service has restrictions such as a maximum duty cycle to ensure that oversale is possible to keep the price reasonable.
Harold F.
has entered the room
Paul H.
has left the room
Doc S.
What do they charge for static ip?
Brett G.
For static IPs, our company just passes on the charge from our upstream
Brett G.
Don't know what Lafayette does
Bob F.
Does this mean everyone in Lafayette can assume connectivity? or do you have to subscribe which means that schools and medical applicatons can't assume connnectivity? Can they assume wireless connectibvity for al citizens?
Doc S.
Alex G.
shep
what do they charge for an IPv6 /48 ??
Erik C.
Doc - how is charging for static IP any different from charging for any other form of math? How's that different from telephone number?
Aleecia M.
I want to move to Lafayette
Justin H.
Looking for a roommate Aleecia?
Mar 31
9:40 AM
Rafael D.
has left the room
Jim B.
Even without muni legislation, there's still a knowledge/demand challenge. Taxpayers are not yet prepared to pay for expensive public networks just for connectivity.
Brett G.
Unfortunately, IANA charges folks for IP addresses and there is expense involved in routing them.
David S.
Jim B +++
Bob F.
It would make a lot of sense to have a program for providign comptures or comptuer rooms in MDUs. Stephen Ronan has such a project in Boston.
Doc S.
Has LUS offered co-lo for KATC-TV or the local radio stations (internet and OTA) streaming over the Net? Just wondering.
Lynn H.
what about access to educational sites that teachers used often these days?
AKMA A.
Teachers don't like plagiarism jokes
shep
is this webtv all over again?
tim
manual intervention to assign static IPs, should have bought a smarter system
Brett G.
I'm interested in where Lafayette gets its backbone Internet bandwidth.
Bob F.
Yes -- people aren't ready to pay for new public networks whichi s why I advocate replacing line cards and getting 100% DSL immediately and focusing efforst on enabling that.
Alex G.
monthly charge seems high
Alex G.
for web tv
Bob F.
Legislative hurdles exist and need to be dealt with.
Alex G.
biz services more expensive -- better SLA for biz custs?
Bob F.
Medical high speed is cute for the live saving applications can work at far lower speeds.
Doc S.
What is behind the pricing for business? Why higher? Because the service is more intense, or because it's always been done that way by carriers?
Brett G.
They're getting $2 per Mbps backbone bandwidth? Or are they taking a loss?
Alex G.
what doc said
David S.
Bob F - the public doesn't own most of the copper plant and can't simply take it away
Bob F.
What till they find 100 Mbps makes "piracy" [sic] easy :)
Doc S.
Hey, James, santa barbara is still in play. Just letting you know. Thanks again for coming out. It made a difference.
shep
Why is the "peer-to-peer" speed boost only 100 Mbps, why not 1 Gbps ?
David W.
Ah, the group applauds to cement its identity as a BIG BUNCH OF NERDS
Brett G.
They are counting on 50% penetration? Again, that shuts out private enterprise
Marvin G.
has left the room
Justin H.
well, they're still a business, brett
Stig
Do they do any traffic shaping?
Doc S.
Brett, it does help to recognize that there are times and places where no private enterprise is interested at all. And never will be.
Mar 31
9:45 AM
Lynn H.
Doc ++
Steve S.
good q stig
Brett G.
We'd jump at the chance to serve a city with more than 100K population. (Laramie's population is 28K, and half of that is the University, which isn't really in the market)
Aleecia M.
Brett, unless you're serious about moving there...
Justin H.
laissez les bon temps roulez
Brett G.
What "peer to peer Internet?" Assertion without proof
Harold F.
I wish we had questions. I am finding a lot of resistance by power companies and others to dual use networks. How can we get past that?
David S.
Brett G - than why haven't you yet? There are plenty of other markets where this is possible.
Bob F.
I do want to applaud many aspects of this like peer connectivithy a high-speed. What concerns me is that the financial model makes connectivity a threat to the finances and the inability to presume connectivity to everyone 24x7 wired or unwired, subscriber or not subscriber. I'd like to understand the future arc.
John S.
Brett, no community has any obligation to make markets for you to make the sort of living you want. They can do it for themselves...and a few communities do.
Erik C.
Brett - now that Nina has left, who is running WY Telecom Council?
Michael W.
WOW for everyone!
Brett G.
I like living in Laramie. Why should I move elsewhere?
Harold F.
When I spoke to Electric Coop folks, their response was "you don't need broadband to do smart grid."
Michael W.
Rural Fiber Alliance
Isabel W.
Rural Fiber Alliance
Harold F.
Making the internet regular for everyone.
Michael W.
no relation
Isabel W.
1) access 2)... 3) we're americans
tim
Harold: smart grid can be only part of the message
David W.
What was that url?
David W.
where's the Tivo replay button when you need it?
Doc S.
James and Terry, I'd like to see what happens when Internet is not a "service" that's "delivered," but a platform on which anything can be built: a tide that lifts all boats, and where the TV and telephone boats are smaller and smaller parts of the growing whole. Like to see what your experience is as we move toward that state.
Erik C.
Harold F. - you are exactly right - and not only are they not interested; they are opposed. Effort to bring push fiber out in the world's first full "Smart City" - Boulder CO - were defeated.
Harold F.
Geoff will put it on his blog, which I highly recommend.
Aleecia M.
2) fiber & wifi 3) we can do this
Bob F.
Fiber is cheap but why not make it about connectivity using whatever is available so we can get 100% "broadband' using current copper and then we can upgrade ths speed over time.
Lawrence K.
"W'e're Americans and We can Do This." Well, yeah...but we can't get out of our own way to build a decent electric car.
Brett G.
Erik: The Wyoming Telecomm Council resigned en masse. It had no power, could not reach consensus much of the time, and the Legislature didn't listen to it.
Scott B.
has entered the room
Russell S.
has entered the room
Erik C.
Brett G. That's too bad. WY Telecom Council was a force of good.
Isabel W.
Bob is ringing
Brett G.
I still want to hear how Lafayette is getting a backbone connection to the Net that lets it sell bandwidth at $2 per Mbps. Most of rural America cannot get that for love or money.
Russell S.
note that moving electric usage still consumes fuel and still creates emissions. clipping the peak save on building power plants, not so much on co2.
Erik C.
Brett G. do you have a link to Chris Savage's 2006 presentation to the WY Telecom Council on fiber throughout Wyoming? (was looking but could not find)
Mar 31
9:50 AM
Brough T.
It should be noted, that Lafayette's 100 Mbps peer-ro-peer is routine in middle class neighborhoods in Karachi, Lahore (Pakistan) or Daka (Bangladesh). See:
Brough T.
Brett G.
Erik: I was on the WY Telecomm Council for one term. It was, alas, mostly impotent. I do not have a link to Chris' presentation, but if he is there I am sure he can provide one.
Alex G.
Obama to Automakers: It's My Way or the Highway http://www.reuters.com/article/bigMoney/id…
Jeff
Terry, do you practice traffic shaping? Any Point to Point?
John S.
Brett, on LUS Fiber backbone connection--Terry would be the one to ask for current details but in a nutshell Lafayette lies at the junction of 2 interstates and 2 railroad lines all of which together effectively have all the major providers. There is REAL competition of Lafayette's business. Very lucky that way, most don't have anything like real competition.
Stig
Good q, Jeff!
Alex G.
courts review FCC because FCC can't make decisions that are legal'
Genny P.
FCC fails the Administrative Procedures Act
Bob F.
It's interesting to read about how slums evolve into cities from the edge. As we get protocols to eanble ad-hoc connectivity you might discover that the Mumbai networks would be naturally P2P without preset limits - wireless or wired (whatever technology works). Just speculating but such a dynamic would be very exciting.
Erik C.
APA = illusion that there is separation of power in administrative law. It's the blue pill.
Brett G.
Cheyenne, WY is at the juncture of two interstates as well. But the backbones don't stop in Laramie, 45 miles away on the other side of a mountain range.
Bob F.
I agree -- allowing free speech is not the same as presuming free speech.
Erik C.
Brett - if you could get into conduit running down I-80, you'd be done. Forget splitting into lit OC-192 backbone fiber - just run your own. Game over.
Mar 31
9:55 AM
Bob F.
Water up hill -that takes power back from the gird to run dams in reverse?
Brett G.
And all of the backbones that run through Laramie (without stopping) have now been bought up by one company that won't open them up -- even at 10x the "big city" price.
Shmuel F.
Mostly canadian actors in the hollywood movies anyway
Stig
It's like interstates without exits, isn't it? I seem to remember that St Thomas, VI was a junction point for the undersea cables, but they didn't stop there. No off ramp.
christian A.
has left the room
Brett G.
Eric: Running redundant fiber down I-80 would cost many millions of $ and is unnecessary. The fiber is there.
Bob F.
Remember that Canada taxes cassette tapes to pay the musicians because, after all, what purpose could cassettes have?
Brett G.
That's because free speech is not a related issue.
Brett G.
People who want to regulate the Internet try to drag in "free speech" as if it were in danger, which it is not
Michael W.
this is a bold and ridiculous misrepresentation of the comments filed by the progressive community
Michael W.
Denton is a right wing free market Harperist
Alex G.
teksavvy canada -- world's best ISP http://www.dslreports.com/reviews/2564
Isabel W.
The gentleman seems to be alright
Lawrence K.
Question for James: Given the difficulty of getting consensus, what is the smallest unit that makes sense? Can a small state, for example effectively become a smart grid state?
Doc S.
Queue Jackson Browne's "Before the Deluge": http://www.lyricsfreak.com/j/jackson+brown…
fpaynter
has entered the room
Isabel W.
I think people should not sit on the stairs it is a hazard
Stig
Quality of Service?
Judi C.
If anyone has EXPERT experience with Quicktime streaming servers and can help me diagnose an inscrutable problem with a few people who are unable to connect successfully, please let me know. Thank you
Isabel W.
there are plenty of open seats
Alex G.
caps make sense
Isabel W.
I'm serious
Alex G.
1 TB per month!
Stig
So... bandwidth caps?
Brett G.
Ah. There's a limit on duty cycle.
Brett G.
What is it?
Mar 31
10:00 AM
David Y.
Judi C. - I'm one of those people who can't access the video
Judith H.
judi are they on macs or PCs?
David Y.
PC
Brett G.
As I suspected, they can't sell backbone at $2 per Mbps (after all, the big city price these days is $3 per Mbps from Cogent)
Erik C.
Brett G. - you have or anyone have stats on cost of pulling fiber through existing conduit? I don't think it's millions; I'd guess you could get that done for $100k - anyone have stats/info on that?
Judith H.
sorry I am a mac person
Brett G.
Erik: There's no existing conduit to pull thru.
Doc S.
Terry, what's your backhaul and how much do you buy it for?
Steve S.
intra-LUS version of torrent would be interesting
Judith H.
david, do you have the latest version of quicktime?
Isabel W.
Could people please voluntarily remove themselves from the stairs before I have to make an official announcement?
David Y.
yes, just downloaded it this morning
Brett G.
Another weak spot in Lafayette's model: if people switch from cable to Internet streaming, the whole thing fails.
Isabel W.
It is not safe to have people sitting on the stairs
Doc S.
James ('cuz I think you missed it earlier), Santa Barbara is still in play, and thanks again for your visit. It made a difference.
Isabel W.
Thank you
Brett G.
And we see customers going that way.
Dirk
Terry, did Mrs Naquin take a subscription?
Brett G.
This is one of the big threats to the viability of municipal fiber.
David B.
Judidth H. and David Y - VLC works well
Erik C.
I love community networking; I worry when the city that owns / controls poles, conduit, ROW is a "competitor" relative to the present shape of the system. Munis killed CLECS. Not that CLECs were perfect and not that good Muni wouldn't (or doesn't) just ROCK, but this is an issue - and continue to be litigated.
Brett G.
David I: A question from the Internet peanut gallery. Where is Lafayette's municipal network getting its backbone connection, and at what cost per Mbps?
Doc S.
Link for Jeff's thing? Or did I miss it?
Steve S.
I wonder if akamai and other cds providers will make sure to install nodes within the LUS network
Russell S.
has left the room
Doc S.
Brett, I asked again on this channel, which James and terry can see on the stage, but they don't look at it often enough. Maybe David I will see it and ask.
Brett G.
My suspicion is that Lafayette would not let a company like mine offer service over its fiber.
David W.
ISENBERG, TURN AROUND!!!!
David S.
Brett - UTOPIA would
Mar 31
10:05 AM
Stig
Surely Akamai's there already?
Brett G.
Anticompetitive
Judi C.
has left the room
Erik C.
Brett G. AGREE completely!!!
Stig
But VOIP is fine, right?
David W.
ISENBERG, from Brett: David I: A question from the Internet peanut gallery. Where is Lafayette's municipal network getting its backbone connection, and at what cost per Mbps?
Brett G.
Stig: good question
tim
Brett G - dont think many people in Laf will switch to internet streaming if U consider thier demographics, the real problem is that the business model assumes (roughly) $100 a month for services the 25-30 years. That aint gonna happen unless they get some other services on the network
Erik C.
"only switched telephone provider" on the network? "Switched telco" on fiber. Hello Aunt Bell.
Steve S.
Level3 has pops in both Baton Rouge and New Orleans
John S.
The Utopia model is on the ropes currently...in no small part because it is wholesale only
Judi C.
has entered the room
Brett G.
People are switching to streaming for two reasons: $$ and fewer commercials.
tim
sure but not grandmas
Steve S.
David, people are wondering where they peer to the backbone
Brett G.
I am getting calls from grandmas who want to switch to streaming!
Micah S.
has left the room
Steve S.
Yikes, thats alot!
tim
your a sad man
Brett G.
David I: Thanks for asking
Brett G.
Ah.... They are assuming a limited duty cycle, as we do. Constant streaming or P2P would cause them to lose money
David S.
John S - UTOPIA is not on the ropes because of the wholesale model . . . I would be happy to discuss the circumstaces of the past offline
Erik C.
Geez, I'd love Section 251 rights to interconnect w/ Lafayette. Let's GET PAST this. All IP = interstate telecommunications; preempt state regulation; and AT LEAST give me 251(a) and 251(b) INTERCONNECTION RIGHTS.
Lev G.
has entered the room
Bob F.
Is it feasible to aggregate demand with other cities and use dark fiber to itnerconnect with other cities in order to be in a better position for being connectivivity outside the community? This could put off having cross the peering abyss to the point there is no high price for transit.
Doc S.
Video to, from and by ordinary folks are going to be the new Hollywood, and a bigger and bigger percentage of internet traffic and data storage (at home or in the cloud). It is essential that it not be forbidden or foreclosed by provider policy or regulation at any government level.
tim
DAvid S - spot on
Bob F.
Cat gut?
Nick G.
Mar 31
10:10 AM
Jeff
has left the room
Bob F.
UTIOPIA is indeed a victim of having to play by telco rules rather than thriving as infrastucture? We need to help distinguish between telecom and connectivity.
David i.
has entered the room
Stig
Great, Terry! And your band-width is less than the quintet.
Aleecia M.
I love F2C
Shmuel F.
Where's my washboard and zydeco?
Brett G.
Wish I had my bass there.
David Y.
Judi - I put in this url rtsp://odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp It goes through 'waiting for media' then comes back 'not found'
Jeff
has entered the room
Glenn S.
How does someone go from talking fibre to playing a violin and singing in French/Cajun. Amasing!!
Jeff
And that is how you keep the monopoly on electricity and content in Louisiana!
Glenn S.
This guy has a full time gig if the fibre gig doesnt work out!!
Jean R.
If only more conferences enabled panelists to conclude with a little musical talent!
David S.
Bravo!
Brett G.
Hey, I have a crew of wireless Internet installers who go from geeking out to playing bluegrass.
Nick G.
that was just outstanding
David W.
Very much a F2C moment.
David S.
Brett G - now would be a good time to talk if you're interested
Brett G.
Lots of folks in tech are good musicians.
AKMA A.
has left the room
Tony A.
Jean R. Most politicians are good at song and dance.
Brett G.
David S: Sure; give a call on my land line. 307-745-0351.
AKMA A.
has entered the room
Mar 31
10:15 AM
Judith H.
David Y, were you able to see the video yesterday?
Judith H.
if so, then have quick time open that stream
AKMA A.
After the break, the John Jorgenson Quintet is going to top Terry Huval by installing a bimodal fiber/wireless network for the entire Beltway area.
David Y.
I was in the room yesterday. No, I didn't access the stream yesterday.
Steve S.
I think they said Nashville actually, AKMA
Jon L.
has entered the room
Jon L.
Hello, all. Sorry to be late to the party.
Mar 31
10:20 AM
Genny P.
I had to switch to my MS machine in order to get the stream to work
Nathaniel J.
has left the room
Jon L.
Unfortunately can't open the stream from the conference.
fpaynter
I have okay video but no audio
tim
is it time yet for an Alternative Awards section from the chat room?
Jon L.
Frank: the audio would just be a distraction. *8^)
fpaynter
:-)
Stig
how about a n open mike for f2c? we're all about openness, right?
Genny P.
Sure - we could give out a flame award and a troll award
Dan A.
has left the room
Jon L.
I see that the trick is to open it in Quicktime and not via browser.
Jon L.
I take that back. I still get a "not found" message.
Jon L.
Has the url for the stream changed from the url on the web page? I'm using rtsp://odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp
Genny P.
A number of people are struggling with it. If you have a different machine, try it too
fpaynter
I opened that url in Firefox on Xp using QT 7.5.5
fpaynter
got video, no audio
Bob F.
has left the room
David W.
has left the room
Doc S.
has left the room
Lynn H.
has left the room
Shmuel F.
has left the room
Aleecia M.
has left the room
Jen G.
has left the room
leon j.
has left the room
Norman J.
has left the room
Nick G.
has left the room
MaryBeth H.
has left the room
Scott B.
has left the room
Judith H.
no, I am using that url
Judith H.
but i have a mac
fpaynter
QT version?
Judith H.
I opened up quicktime and then opened the feed from within quicktime
Mar 31
10:25 AM
Judith H.
mine is 7.6
Nathaniel J.
has entered the room
Don J.
has left the room
Dirk
has left the room
Justin H.
has left the room
shep
has left the room
John S.
has left the room
Tony A.
has left the room
David S.
has left the room
Drew
has left the room
Jeff
has left the room
Judi C.
We have many people connected to our video streaming server now, but there's some mystery about why a few computers can't connect. We've tested the problem, the same computers can connect on one network but not on another. That's why I requested an EXPERT (if one exists).
Mar 31
10:30 AM
David Y.
has left the room
Judi C.
NOTE: There is a hole in the market for a good streaming server service using OPEN protocols. Ustream is almost ok but not for this long of a streaming time. Apple's QT streaming server is free but has idiosyncracies. Real is not free and is proprietary. There's one other service on the net but very expensive.
David Y.
has entered the room
Lynn S.
has left the room
Michael W.
has left the room
Isabel W.
has left the room
Steve S.
has left the room
kwerb
has left the room
Harold F.
has left the room
Mar 31
10:35 AM
Philip R.
has left the room
Charles B.
has entered the room
Don J.
has entered the room
Mar 31
10:40 AM
Genny P.
Yes we can hear you
Catherine M.
has left the room
Steve S.
has entered the room
Mar 31
10:45 AM
Tony A.
has entered the room
John S.
has entered the room
Shmuel F.
has entered the room
JoePlotkin
has left the room
Jeff
has entered the room
Michael R.
has entered the room
Shmuel F.
Tony: di you get my message yesterday about the public v private infrastructure citation?
Jeff
Elvis has left the building
Mar 31
10:50 AM
David W.
has entered the room
Philip R.
has entered the room
Isabel W.
has entered the room
David W.
JJ continues to amaze.
Isabel W.
by elvis do you mean susan crawford?
Dan A.
has entered the room
Judi C.
ok, taped down lots of wires but appreciate your help looking around.
Lynn S.
has entered the room
Micah S.
has entered the room
Bob F.
has entered the room
Alex G.
darn missed her
Doc S.
has entered the room
Isabel W.
bob, would you mind closing the door please?
Justin H.
has entered the room
Isabel W.
thanks
Jen G.
has entered the room
shep
has entered the room
Isabel W.
sounds nice
leon j.
has entered the room
Doc S.
Can somebody turn up the sound on his mike?
Isabel W.
lol true
Alex G.
akma -- comments?
Mar 31
10:55 AM
AKMA A.
I am not a heretic!
Mar 31
10:55 AM
Alex G.
what defines a heretic?
Isabel W.
these are the inconvenient truths
Nick G.
has entered the room
Bob F.
Fourth -- becomes religion and resists future change
David W.
I am, however, self-evident. (self@evident.com)
Isabel W.
bob! brilliant
christian A.
has entered the room
isen
GREAT BOOK: _The Age of Heretics_ by Art Kleiner!!!
Lev G.
has left the room
Doc S. 
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."
Mohandas Gandhi
AKMA A.
(Religion is always changing -- sometimes more wisely, sometimes more foolishly, sometimes unwillingly)
Jeff
Penny wise pound foolish? A british idiom?
Bob F.
Networking is an activity and networks are emergent properties
Bob F.
Penny wise and Euro Foolish
Alex G.
if you live at 10 feet over sea level, you go green fast
Doc S.
What if religion is against your religion? Or vice versa?
Alex G.
is atheistic heresy possible?
David W.
orthodoxy is the atheistic heresy.
fpaynter
has left the room
Doc S.
Why in some places in Europe even the fiber deployments are asymmetrical and called "ADSL" as if it were a good thing?
Bob F.
Atheists can be orthodox
Alex G.
no, that can't be right ;-)
Alex G.
+doc
David W.
true, bob f. Dawkins is an orthodox atheist.
David W.
He's also a religious bigot, but please don't take the bait.
Doc S.
Why is fiber DOCSIS 3.0? Is it because it's HFC in the last kilometer? Or canal?
Lynn H.
has entered the room
Bob F.
I wonder about the idea of "competitors" - is the model railroads or roads?
Isabel W.
right david, if god came right up and selected him for punishment he still would not believe!
Mar 31
11:00 AM
David W.
Isabel, that would make him the inverse Job.
Bob F.
Peering is part of the problematic model -- with all that fiber and capacity and the lack of bit caps why not take the next step to make it infrastructure rather than telecom? What is the meaning of "bandwidth" as a billing unit?
Lynn H.
david i: bice is set. i told him to give me a ring when the xrays are done and i'll go pick him up
Harold F.
has entered the room
isen
Lynn, Excellent thx
Bob F.
My standard test -- can we assume connectivity -- wired or wireless? Or are we still in a subscription/service model.
Brett G.
When you are already underwater, it's easy do do undersea fiber. ;-)
Casey L.
has entered the room
David W.
the logo is a reverse copyright mark. On purpose?
isen
Brett LOL!
Aleecia M.
has entered the room
Aleecia M.
So my friends' 401(k)s are able to run undersea fiber?
Brett G.
Glub.
Mar 31
11:05 AM
Bob F.
Shouldn't those satellite dishes disappears once people can assume 100Mbps and get their content over IP?
David i.
has left the room
Brett G.
Why should those dishes disappear? DBS (or any broadcast medium) is millions of times more efficient than individual streaming over IP.
Bob F.
yes -- this is all very good. I'm just concerned about the funding model which limits the ability to assume infrastructure.
Doc S.
I covered a local "netco" in Copenhagen several years back. Their build-out context was lots of cobblestone streets (which can easily be disassembled and reassembled on sunday mornings) and coop housing with lots of vertical shafts for pulling anything to any floor. Interesting. http://m.linuxjournal.com/article/9446
Paul H.
has entered the room
Michael W.
has entered the room
Drew
has entered the room
Brett G.
The only reasons people are switching to IP streaming are cost arbitrage, time shifting, and (temporarily) fewer commercials -- all problems that are solvable for broadcast.
Doc S.
Bob, it helps to explain what you mean by infrastructure. Is it extant wiring, or something else?
Bob F.
Ideally there should a redundent mesh -- how long are the runs to the pops? Are the runs to the buildings or the apts?
Brett G.
We, as an ISP, are reaping benefits as people switch to us and buy higher service levels from us so that they can stream TV shows. But we have no reason to assume that this dislocation will be permanent.
Judi C.
To all remote people who have not been able to connect to our video streaming server: We'll be taking a break in broadcast at lunchtime and restarting our server. Please try connecting again after lunch. We're hoping that a restart will help.
JoePlotkin
has entered the room
Bob F.
By infrastructure I mean the ability to assume connectivity without requiring special billing relationships with the path. Thus you can start to build applications and services that work everywhere.
Doc S.
Brett, another reason is simple a la carte preferences. Maybe that's cost arbitrage, but I'm not sure. I'd be glad to pay CBS (rather than my bundling carrier) for NCAA playoff programs over the Net, simply because they make it available on an a la carte basis. Their price, however, is zero.
Brett G.
Bob, it's provable that mesh architectures (especially ad hoc ones) don't work when decent quality of service is required.
Mar 31
11:10 AM
Alex G.
"fiber that does nothing" = stupid network
Steve S.
nice Alex
David W.
This is a case where color would help the visual display of quantitiate info
Jerry B.
has entered the room
Brett G.
Doc: It's a form of cost arbitrage. It's a reaction to the absence of "a la carte" options from cable and satellite providers (which in turn is driven by content providers' business models). Ironically, the content providers themselves will ultimately lose if the stream their content "a la carte" with few commercials.... This is why I am saying that the dislocation may be temporary.
Justin H.
Disembark
Jon L.
Still get a not found error on the stream, btw.
Steve S.
FTTB
Bob F.
Are the video services over IP or over Lambdas?
Justin H.
or Launch
Doc S.
Bob, the problem is that I assume I can connect with you by mobile device or laptop. Yet that connectivity is provided by companies that own the paths and require us to pay for using them. Thus I can't assume connectivity without billing. That's the simple fact of life in the present. What is the path to infrastructure as you define it? We need that plan.
Joshua B.
has entered the room
JoePlotkin
do bits float?
Barlow K.
has entered the room
isen
Whatever floats your bits
Micah S.
<why do i feel that no matter what conference I attend, if Doc S. and Bob F. are there, they are having this same conversation?>
isen
A rising tide lifts all bits
Doc S.
Brett, fwiw, they still have commercials in the current "system" (if it is one).
Bob F.
This is a good example -- if the city is doing it they can choose to use an infrastructure model or a subscription model. I understand the problem with perverse legislation in the US but does Ambsterdam face the same obstacles?
David W.
0 bits float because of surface tension. 1 bits fall through because of the pointy end.
Jeff
Business in Amsterdam
Brett G.
Bob F.
If we don't confuse conncetivithy with fiber radios make sense for some segments.
Isabel W.
why dno't they just go on the outside of the building? I mean, I know it's ugly, but....
Isabel W.
THAT sounds like a good case for wireless to me.
Brett G.
Siddown, yer rockin the bit!
Justin H.
if this bit's a rockin'
David S.
has entered the room
Mar 31
11:15 AM
Peter C.
has entered the room
David W.
Pun looking for a home: Easy to install digital/dig-it-all infrastructure in a country with lots of mud. I give this to you for nothing.
Brett G.
Doc: Yes, they still have commercials in the free online streams, but there are far fewer and they tend to be only at the beginning -- much less annoying and this reduces the amount of time you have to allocate to watch the show.
Brett G.
David W: The mudder of all networks
Brett G.
(or the muddier of all networks?)
AKMA A.
MUDs drive broadband adoption?
Brett G.
Bonk!
Bob F.
Why are we talking about ARPU rather than looking at it at a city level as a commons?
Brett G.
(Is no one going to say, "Oif?" Sorry; old MUD joke.)
Justin H.
real time video gambling!
Bob F.
What is the latency between Amsterdam and Silver Spring?
Justin H.
there's profit in that I hear
Jerry B.
has left the room
JoePlotkin
latency between the ears is bigger problem
Jerry B.
has entered the room
Judith H.
Good one!!
Mar 31
11:20 AM
Harold F.
Bob F is right.
Brett G.
Joe: Not everyone is quick on the uptake
David W.
Oh! I just got Joe's joke! Ha ha!
Brett G.
I used to write stories for Dan at the Murky Noose years ago...
Bob F.
What's your tweet handle?
fpaynter
has entered the room
David W.
Let's just take the entire thing online
Isabel W.
@kwerb
Doc S.
KWERB. a human radio station. Tweetio?
Isabel W.
right david. why even talk anymore?
Doc S.
Isabel W.
This screensaver blows. Download http://electricsheep.org/ !!
Bob F. 
Twitter is stressing out a bit right now, so this feature is temporarily disabled.
JoePlotkin
iz, your bias is showing
Hilarie C.
has left the room
Brett G.
Kevin and Susan are both on the "advisory board" of a DC lobbying group called "Public Knowledge" based not far from this theater; see http://www.publicknowledge.org
Isabel W.
it's not a bias - do a search for "best screensaver ever", I don't think the one on the left shows up at all.
Genny P.
Nothing
Alex G.
K-Mart
Brett G.
Oh, and Harold F just joined that group as well as its chief lawyer
Mar 31
11:25 AM
Doc S.
Brett, I'm on advisory boards of more companies and organizations than I can count.
Mar 31
11:25 AM
Doc S.
And my influence rounds close to zero.
Genny P.
What wasnt broken
Isabel W.
Brett, why did you put that in quotes?
Harold F.
Yes Brett, we and the Free Masons are controlling policy.
Doc S.
My point: There's often less to that stuff than it appears.
Bob F.
Like offing the TAC?
Harold F.
That's why National Treasure movies keep happening.
Isabel W.
sadly, there is rarely more to stuff than it appears.
Bob F.
There's a conspiracy to create the illusion of conspiracies.
Alex G.
+ genny
Harold F.
More seriously, there is a tendency to make Martin the villain of the story. But Martin was only the culmination of trends that had been going on for years.
Isabel W.
CHANGE: the theme of Kevin's supernova conference this year
Brett G.
Isabel: I put it in quotes because it can have a lot of meanings; see above.
Isabel W.
Steve S.
I remember this game
Harold F.
Ask why I am in julius' office?
Isabel W.
I think Susan will have that job before Kevin does!
Bob F.
Kill, such a harsh word. How about "put to sleep"?
John S.
It is very nice to have a reporter asking these questions.
Isabel W.
bob: because they are already sleeping
Bob F.
Their snoring is awfully loud.
Isabel W.
there are no trees in hockey
Dean L.
skate to the puck --how Canadian a reference
JoePlotkin
restoring common carraige?
Harold F.
That would be good.
Bob F.
Waterworld
Justin H.
it's governnment hockey
Harold F.
Kevin ++
JoePlotkin
yeah all pucked up
Bob F.
Yes -- the bit commons
Dean L.
check that
David W.
Not to mention the broarband requirements of World of Warcraft 2029.
Joshua B.
remember when the other guys ran the FCC?
Mar 31
11:30 AM
Michael W.
has left the room
Jon L.
@DavidW I shudder to think.
Bob F.
Why not just moot spectrum?
isen
Hi Jon L
Harold F.
Bob F. must be phased in.
Doc S.
Mostly what I was looking for was an update on an effort that Kevin championed a few years back.
Isabel W.
kevin is a big WoW player apparently
Harold F.
Technology is in beta for this.
Jon L.
Hi, David.
Alex G.
WOW 2029: 120 " projected screens . .
Isabel W.
in his copious free time ?!?!?
Brett G.
As I said yesterday: the only serious constraints on wireless are regulatory, not technical. I can do 1.25 Gbps with off the shelf point-to-point equipment right now. I could do it point-to-multipoint, and at higher speeds, if the regulations let me. And as a EE, I could design the equipment myself here in my lab....
Doc S.
Is WOW now World of Wonkcraft?
isen
Everybody, Jon Lebkowsky coined the phrase "Freedom to Connect"
AKMA A.
In Steve S.'s and my guild
Nathaniel J.
isen
He's in Austin following the stream
Jon L.
<bows>
Doc S.
"All technical problems are technical and political. And you can always solve the technical problems." - Craig Burton
AKMA A.
Hi, Jon!
Dean L.
Bush's FCC sold off various spectrum for purposes not so devoted to public policy-- it was all about $$
Isabel W.
Thanks Jon!
Aleecia M.
If I were working to improve the FCC, I think I'd want to go home and kill some orcs. At least.
Bob F.
Phased out. more seriously I think if we treat all access points as wired<=>wireless transit points spectrum policy will become unimportant as we can use fiber (or whatever) for distance. this is the Negoponte inversion with wireless for local.
Geoff D.
has entered the room
Jon L.
Not really following the stream, I can't get it to play.
Harold F.
Federal spectrum?
Harold F.
Dean L. Blame for auctions really goes to Congress.
Justin H.
good point, bob f.
Jon L.
I wish I was there in the room. (Actually, I wish I was on Kauai.)
Harold F.
Spectrum auctions are the crack cocaine of telecom policy.
Isabel W.
++++
Harold F.
And now we are doing it to IPv4 addresses.
Dean L.
point taken, Harold -- but they had their man in power
JoePlotkin
Amen harold
Doc S.
I've always thought the auctions were wacky. Like selling 38,000 feet to Delta and 36,000 feet to United.
Hilarie C.
has entered the room
Isabel W.
see! who we elect actually matters!
Bob F.
The auctions are also the way economists get to use all their fantastic models.
Brett G.
J C Bose was doing millimeter wave research in India a century ago, using spark gaps and paper and foil diffraction gratings....
JoePlotkin
Doc, like your analogy
Jon L.
If I was in the room, I would be hoping to hear positive news about what's changed since January 21.
Brett G.
We have GOT to get away from the auction regime.
Harold F.
Dean L. When Martin put open device condition on C block, he got major blow back from Congress for threatening the auction revenue.
Bob F.
Doc -- remember we did get assigned altitude slots while flying here.
Micah S.
Dan, try to press Kevin to be more specific
Justin H.
But wasn't it because when those auctions started planes could only fly in straight lines?
David W.
Or, Doc, it's like selling violet to CBS and yellow ochre to Fox. (In fact it's not _like_ that. It _is_ that.)
Justin H.
so to speak
Jerry B.
has left the room
Harold F.
We need new economic models, like Chris S described yesterday.
Dean L.
Harold: again point taken, but the mood was top down, and by top I mean POTUS
Bob F.
It's like assuring no two people where the same colors lest they interfere.
Brett G.
Susan needs to understand that utility-like regulation of the Internet, which she advocates, would be horribly destructive.
Harold F.
Dean L. Yes, very much so.
Doc S.
BobF, the fortunate thing is that planes are altitude-agile. They're spread-elevation.
Isabel W.
kevin! good answer.
David W.
kevin ++
Mar 31
11:35 AM
David W.
Also, planes have cognitive radios. Well, radios + cognition.
Bob F.
Actually a given plane is not distributed across a wide swatch of altitudes.
David W.
The one I was on last night was, bob
Brett G.
Cognitive radio and spectrum policy: See http://www.brettglass.com/CR/
Bob F.
OK, they do do altitude hopping.
Doc S.
Q for Kevin: Where does the NTIA fit? We heard nothing about them until the Obama administration came in.
David S.
The planes are on specific courses because they don't know where they are at any given point in time, they only know where they have just been. Airlines need technology adaptation as well to implement better immediate knowledge for piltos. This will enable planes to fly off course without as much risk of running into other planes.
Bob F.
For structural reasons not moral reasons
Alex G.
telcos want to be cellcos and build a private walled internet
Tony A.
Torches and pitchforks!
Rich M.
has entered the room
Isabel W.
because you don't like someone is not a reason to kill them.
Alex G.
Bob F.
The problem is not that they are evil -- it is that they take the abundant infrastructure and lock it into onlly the services they define.
Brett G.
Unfortunately, many of the torches and pitchforks which are directed at the telcos are likely to kill their competitors and leave them standing.
Rich M.
(Hi Jon...saw you pop up. I'm here)
Alex G.
strachan macedonia
Doc S.
I used to have a pathetic old dog. It would come up to people and look up with large sad eyes. One day a crass friend looked at the dog and said, "Go die." That re-named the dog. It was, after that, "Go-die." And that's just what she did, too.
Norman J.
has entered the room
Isabel W.
doc, with friends like that...
Joshua B.
the biggest threats to the internet at this point are global - censorship and repression in china, burma, south korea
Jon L.
Tech note: attempting to load rtsp://odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp in Quicktime, I get a loading media countdown, then a "not found" message.
Bob F.
The question is not whether we should kill the Telcos -- the question is whether we should stop trying to hard to keep them alive by aiding and abeting a conflict of interest in inherent in the current model.
Alex G.
ipv4 address space
Brett G.
Benign neglect is better than ill advised micromanagement....
MaryBeth H.
has entered the room
Jon L.
Are those regional threats to freedom of information flow, or do they have broader implications?
Brett G.
I am afraid that we are trending toward the latter.
David W.
bob f ++
Justin H.
brett, do I need to start paying you tithing, because I'm kind of into your religion
Mar 31
11:40 AM
Brett G.
Is it religion? I hope it's based on something more than faith.
Joshua B.
jon l - Depends how you see the Internet - if it's value comes from the free flow of information, then they have broader implications
Justin H.
well, the sermons are nice
Joshua B.
its value
Doc S.
All us nice folks can vote happily to kill the carriers because they can only kill themselves anyway, so they're safe from us.
Bob F.
We need new advocacy - http://frankston.com/?name=OCA
Isabel W.
the best way to kill them is to simply stop using them.
Isabel W.
use workarounds whenever possible. for example - no more land lines. use voip or your cell.
shep
the whole language of spectrum regulation is broken. There is no objective way to determine if spectrum is being "used" or not. It is all a construct of the regulation.
Tony A.
How do you stop using telcos and cablecos when they have th doupoly of connection to my home
Bob F.
To stop using them we need to stop passing legislation whose only purpose is to keep them alive by making Utopia, Lafayette and others use a telco model rather than building common infrastructure.
Brett G.
The carriers do not die; they morph, split, recombine.As I said last year: the Bell System is like a slime mold. It divided to get around an obstacle -- in this case, regulation -- and then recombined on the other side. It is two mergers away from completing that process.
Bob F.
Spectrum is "used" if someone anywhere has a receiver capable of hearing a signal if there was one.
Alex G.
tremendous oppty to mess with the database and turn competition on and off remotely
Isabel W.
tony, you could cut back to just one
Doc S.
Kevin, can we liberate the Net from 1934? Can we come up with an entirely new regulatory (or de-regulatory) framework for it, because it is sooo different from both "telecommunications", "information" and (for that matter) "services"?
Don J.
Carriers hold a stranglehold on PSTN peering/routing, e911 (highly emotional topic that can't be ignored), and to some extent, the allocation of phone numbers
Jon L.
Joshua: I tend to agree. Ideal world = global persistent freedom to connect, freedom of speech, free flowing data.
Bob F.
1934 -- services. 200x -- bits
shep
even calling it spectrum is misleading.
Justin H.
we need stronger anti-trust enforcement, I always say
David W.
Shep, interesting, but could you explain? Why can't we tell if spectrum is being used? Can't we tell signal from noise? (I know I'm missing something basic. That's why I'm asking.)
JoePlotkin
Amd they are vertically integrated!
Tony A.
Bob: If spectrum passes through a forest, and no receiver is there to here it, did it really get used? :-)
Bob F.
Carterphone has already been gamed by the carriers -- they avoided the simplicity of red/green by playing games like per-carrier 3G frequencies.
shep
telling signal from noise is something that happens *inside* receiving apparatus.
Bob F.
The problem is locking down the value chain.
shep
in the 3 dimensional physical world, its much more like light.
David W.
I understand, shep, but it does happen. So, why can't we tell when it's happening.
Justin H.
re Kevin: that was all market driven
Brough T.
The TV White Space noise floor has (so far) been set so high that commercial success is unlikely to be any better than that of Ultra Wide Band, i.e. not much. The issue is what will be commercially deployable in the next 5 years?
Doc S.
Re: Tony's point... Birds singing in the forest are spread-tone devices. If we were to regulate them, we'd make them all use different tones and limit them to confined geographical coverage areas.
Brett G.
Vertical integration and elimination of wholesale markets are standard anticompetitive tactics which (again) should be specifically targeted by antitrust.
Don J.
The iPhone App store is a decent (far from perfect) counterexample showing problem/cost of walled gardens
Isabel W.
what a sweet comment
Mar 31
11:45 AM
Isabel W.
that he would have to quit playing WoW
Mar 31
11:45 AM
Steve S.
Naxx
Doc S.
Kevin's blog: http://werblog.com/
John S.
thanx Doc
Doc S.
... which he *is* writing on, btw.
Geoff D.
Kevin's twitter: http://twitter.com/kwerb
Justin H.
isn't that the FCC?
Bob F.
Brough -- yes, owning and controlling the value chain is necessary in business. The purpose of legislation is find a balance to avoid a lockdown of important capabilities.
Genny P.
That's NTIA
Brett G.
Unfortunately, some constraints which have been INTENDED to help have been badly targeted. For example, requirements that people be able to use "any device" on a network are technically infeasible in many cases (for example, on our network). But wholesale requirements are a good idea.
Judi C.
To all REMOTE people who have not been able to connect to our video streaming server: We'll be taking a break in broadcast at lunchtime and restarting our server. Please try connecting again after lunch. We're hoping that a restart will help.
Bob F.
What's Obama's tween and who are the 5000 people he is following?
Bob F.
tween == > tweet
Lawrence K.
"Wireless Carterphone" -- in Vermont it took Feb '09 until the IPhone could be sold in the state. That was only because our wirless CLEC, Unicell (Rural Cellular) was forced to divest and ATT picked them up, so ATT now has a presence in the state. I think we were the last state to get the iPhone two years after its introduction.
Micah S.
David W: this is for you. Link to Facebook Passover Haggadah http://9a4440c5.fb.joyent.us/haggadah/ultr…
shep
.... with some concern that this analogy might be misapplied, think of the lights casting illumination on the stage, or the light of the screen saver that is projected on the left side of the screen. Do these emissions, or our eye's ability to detect the light, or the combination of the two, cause us to be able to claim that the "spectrum" is being used ???? The question makes no sense. And asking the question about GHz electromagnetic waves makes no more sense than asking the question about Terahertz electromagnetic waves.
Bob F.
Yes, standards can be imposed. What is important about the IETF is the degree to which it's specifications are suggestions rather than controlling mandates.
David W.
Standards = regulation :: Metacode is law
Bob F.
As I said -- the problem with the smart grid is top down rather than organic approaches.
Brett G.
Defining too many mandatory "standards" can limit innovation.... We must be careful not to do it without good reason. (Spectrum etiquettes are well justified, for example.)
AKMA A.
"Too big to fail"
David i.
has entered the room
Mar 31
11:50 AM
Hilarie C.
has left the room
Isabel W.
ick
Jeff
Supernovan Jenkins in da house!
Isabel W.
raise hands whoever likes supernova
Bob F.
Don J.
Need to make "network neutrality" an enforceable law/regulation, not just a good idea
David W.
[raises virtual hand]
Isabel W.
it's a great conference
Bob F.
Neutrality legislation should not be necessary if we attack the structural problem.
Jeff
[raises virtual hand]
David W.
need to structurally separate so we don't need net neutrality law/regulation
JoePlotkin
what BobF said
Joshua B.
well put kevin
David W.
i.e., what joe said
AKMA A.
[Sure, not that I can go]
JoePlotkin
what DavidW said
Bob F.
Copper, Fiber, radios and innovation
Don J.
Need to encourage fiber to the home, via lots of different experiments (we have heard from some of these experiments)
Frans-Anton
has left the room
Bob F.
Thank Kevin, Dan
Brett G.
Bob F: Agree. If anticompetitive practices are stopped, people can simply choose a different provider if they don't like now one manages its network.
Steve S.
[any conference that has Leeroy Jenkins sounds like fun]
Isabel W.
bring it on!
Isabel W.
I haven't sung at this conference since girl scout camp WTF. NExt year?
Brett G.
Obligatory pointer: "The Freakin' FCC" (Family Guy) -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es-e91_EzMc
Brett G.
Not just vaguely French, but really French.
David W.
Q: Why isn't his accent French?
Brett G.
Lafayette, nous voila'?
Mar 31
11:55 AM
Justin H.
pomme frites
Jeff
Belgian fries
Brett G.
Pomfrets
Justin H.
first lady more like it
Alex G. 
Daily Kos
Foreign Policy As Practiced By Seven Year Old Children   http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/4/10/72338/0002/129/493110
Isabel W.
was that photoshopped?
Isabel W.
obama's head someone's body?
Justin H.
Isabel, you don't keep up with celebrity gossip blogs like you should
David W.
Someone get Isabel a subscription to People!
Judi C.
that photo was published in various papers. He was in Hawaii. We have beaches there. It's really him.
David W.
And we do have to ask why in 8 years we never ONCE saw Bush with his shirt off. My hypothesis: He is SO buff we would realize how little time he spent actually being president.
Tony A.
Because Bush went hunting with Cheney rather than Putin.
Erik C.
David W. +++
Alex G.
Bush looked into Cheney's soul and liked what he saw
Isabel W.
Dean L.
Bush shirtless might have shown the absence of heart
Isabel W.
an ad from the dailykos story alex posted
Mar 31
12:00 PM
Isabel W.
net cologne - my favorite scent
Alex G.
hey we're on the edge of strachanland
Andrew R.
has entered the room
David W.
CycloneDairy: "where we combine DNA with TLC"
David W.
"And where you can combine your coffee with sentient cream"
JoePlotkin
Imbibing coffee transforms me into a sentient being
Jeff
I drink, therefore I am?
Dan A.
has left the room
David S.
has left the room
Norman J.
has left the room
Alex G.
so how many competitors are there in SZ, given the 4 strand requirement?
Glenn S.
So where is his accent? Just a curiousity!
Alex G.
Sw
Brett G.
The last mile isn't the issue! It's the middle mile. The last mile is easy by comparison, even in Switzerland. I want to know how they are dealing with this.
Mar 31
12:05 PM
Dean L.
Glenn -- he left it at the airport-- TSA tookcontrol of it
harold g.
has entered the room
Brett G.
(Brewed a big pot of Peet's Major Dickason this morning. Wish they still made their Viennese Blend; it was the best.)
Alex G.
the arpu chart gets nice over 55 euros, and that should be possible in wealthy neighborhoods.
Alex G.
when did an incumbent anywhere ever recognize the value of non-facilities based competitors?
JoePlotkin
I love this presentation
Harold F.
I've noticed that a lot of times the free market guys never have a detailed response.
Harold F.
It's always "you just don't get it."
Brett G.
Here's an interesting data point. My company has the best coverage in my area, and has been offering other ISPs wholesale access for 6 years. However, NONE OF THEM HAVE BEEN WILLING TO BUY. Why? Because they want to own and control the whole thing! And so, they clog the spectrum deploying their own separate wireless networks instead of using ours.
Peter C.
has left the room
Brett G.
And these are not incumbents. They're other independent ISPs.
Brett G.
So, we've tried to be "open access" and have gotten no takers.
Brett G.
(Er, I mean "figure.")
Aleecia M.
Brett, does "clogging" mean any traffic you cannot monetize? :-)
Bob F.
The problem is the funding model -- not technology. this a central point i've been trying to make.
Bob F.
AKA the Bit Commons
Brett G.
Aleecia: No; "clogging" means interference on the Part 15 spectrum.
Bob F.
This is why we need another model
Mar 31
12:10 PM
Doc S.
has left the room
Aleecia M.
Or P2P or... I'm just notice a theme here
Bob F.
Once we've locked it up into services we've overdfined the solution.
JoePlotkin
That model is Utopia, as Mr Marriott mentioned this am
Brett G.
Perhaps they've been burned so badly by the ILECs that they think we'll treat them badly.... Even though we have offered them contracts which prohibit this.
Glenn S.
Dean L - I wish I could leave my English at the airport and speak perfect Serbian. Is there a chip I can implant somewhere. I do have the Mandarin chip in place.
Brett G.
No two people have the same definition of "network neutrality."
Bob F.
Lambdas reduce effective capacity and prevent neutrality because they predefine the applicaitons thus Lambda is anti-netural by favoring some services with huge swaths of Lambdas.
Bob F.
Why not normalize to bits?
Harold F.
The only time this worked in the U.S. was under Computer II/III for dial up. That was an open last mile with regulated service requirements (as dial up did not lease access at the central office).
Brett G.
This person's definition is different from others' -- and, contrary to what he says, it is not what Verizon FiOS is doing.
David W.
And no two people have the same definition of "freedom of speech." So?
Aleecia M.
Welcome to the perils of success. (I agree, no two people define NN the same way.)
Brett G.
"Freedom of speech" is much better defined (albeit mostly by case law).
Bob F.
Eveyone is special in their own way.
Harold F.
The US is not like the rest of the world because economics doesn't work here?
Bob F.
The problem is the metric of competition is firmly rooted in the 1934 metrics.
Brett G.
The US is "special."
Jeff
What country says,"We're number 2!"
Aleecia M.
"We try harder"?
Harold F.
It's also not a classic competition issue.
Harold F.
The relevant markets are enormously complex and interconnected.
Jeff
Very "special"
Bob F.
ILEC/CLEC failed -- opening their network fails becuase it prevents innovation by coupling the markets.
David W.
And still no two people mean the same thing by "freedom of speech." So, pointing to the incomplete specificity of the application of a concept is not an argument against that concept.
David i.
has left the room
Judi C.
Broadcast is stopping for lunch. Please join us in a little while.
Brett G.
David W: Every proposed IMPLEMENTATION of that concept is actually a veiled attempt to give some special interest an advantage.
John S.
Can we get these slides? Great stuff.
Mar 31
12:15 PM
Bob F.
If one player shares part of the silo then we have a failure to encourage innovation at the shared part of the silo because it benefits competitors.
Erik C.
All of US regulation extremely asymmetrical. Law is very easily tweaked w/in existing frameworks to open all networks in ways that, IMHO, withstand appeal to DC Circuit (b/c all FCC orders of any significance are appealed).
Stig
Slides ++
Brett G.
For example, most NN proposals give an advantage to certain corporations who are funding the lobbyists -- e.g. Google
David W.
every implementation of every concept attempt is interest-based, because everything we do is interest-based. Again, not an argument against NN.
Michael W.
has entered the room
Bob F.
The network must not pay for itself anymore than a bridge pays for itself. That's a fallacy tthat fails to take advantage of all the value being external.
Judith H.
yes would love to see the slides since they do not come out well on the video
Brett G.
Yes, it is an argument against NN, because implementing mandatory NN as per these definitions would be harmful.
JoePlotkin
great presentation, also want slides
Justin H.
actually toll roads have been a very good economic model
David W.
Brett, so? The question is whether the implementation represents the best interests of the society ... where "best interests" will always be hotly debated.
Justin H.
for making roads quickly in area that need them
Michael W.
we would love to see the slides!! they could be done as a slideshow as well
Stig
Still think an F2C open mic would be a fun idea! Next year?
David W.
Ah, yes, the argument against NN has to do with whether it's harmful overall. Whether it also helps particular players is pretty much irrelevant, but that's what you've been arguing, as i understand it.
Brett G.
David W: It is far better to do nothing than to do the wrong thing. "Government of itself never furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of the way." - Henry Thoreau
Jeff
Open mic, I'm in
JoePlotkin
Justin - but we didnt let GM build/own the roads
Nicholas M.
has entered the room
Jeff
+ Joe
Michael W.
Thank you David W.
Brett G.
Wonder if I could jam over the Net. Maybe I could send MIDI messages.
David W.
1. Depends on the consequences of doing nothing. 2. We still have to argue about what the right thing to do is.
David W.
Lunchtime here, though. Time to get my vegetarian, earth-friendly, net neutral box lunch.
Stig
Yes, we could use that Tai Chi video hollywood squares thing to play together!
Brett G.
David W: The FCC has already demonstrated the harm of trying to do the wrong thing. It put out a set of "principles" which are seriously flawed but have been incorporated destructively into the stimulus legislation....
JoePlotkin
AND he can play!
Erik C.
We need to webcast a video of this. WOW.
Jeff
Really well!
Mar 31
12:20 PM
Andrew R.
has left the room
David W.
Brett, I take your statement-without-argument and reverse it. So there!
David W.
Ah, men in suits! What can't they play!
Isabel W.
This totally rocks. I think Benoit should become a permanent part of this band, france or no france.
Brett G.
Maybe I could bring my Xaphoon.
Aleecia M.
David W++ (so many times)
Brett G.
JoePlotkin
Best presentation and musical perfomance combo? No more calls we have a winner . . .
Isabel W.
dueling violin/harmonica -- a cool combination
Jeff
Putain, hypergiga
Steve S.
... even if I wasn't before, now officially unqualified to speak here ...
Brett G.
"Swapping 4's"
David W.
He also plays without an accent! Magnifique!
Tony A.
"Pay to Play" politics replaced by "Play to Play"
Don J.
I agree with BobF and others that if we can just can a user owned/controlled fiber into the home, and people can choose their own providers to access over it, then NN not necessary. That would be a MUCH bigger win. NN only useful as a stopgap until we get that. If we have to prioritize between user controlled FTTH vs NN, then FTTH should win
Isabel W.
Or play to pay! These guys deserve a tip!
Jeff
Si, si il y a un accent mais c'est tres subtile.
Jeff
Bon appetit
David W.
Jeff writes with an accent.
fpaynter
need tray subtitles
Brett G.
Don J: My users own their radios and can point them at any provider they choose. So, we already have this without FTTH.
harold g.
has left the room
Genny P.
has left the room
Judi C.
server has been reset, broadcast will be back shortly
Mar 31
12:25 PM
tim
has left the room
Shmuel F.
has left the room
Nathaniel J.
has left the room
Charles B.
has left the room
Philip R.
has left the room
Bob F.
has left the room
leon j.
has left the room
christian A.
has left the room
Mar 31
12:30 PM
Alex G.
has left the room
MaryBeth H.
has left the room
Susan E.
has entered the room
Lawrence K.
has left the room
Justin H.
has left the room
Harold F.
has left the room
Michael W.
has left the room
Don J.
BrentG: sounds like you have a nice network!
Mar 31
12:35 PM
David B.
has left the room
Steve S.
has left the room
Tony A.
has left the room
Jeff
has left the room
David W.
has left the room
Isabel W.
has left the room
Micah S.
has left the room
shep
has left the room
Nick G.
has left the room
Casey L.
has left the room
Aleecia M.
has left the room
JoePlotkin
has left the room
Jen G.
has left the room
Rich M.
has left the room
Judi C.
would love to know if anyone previously unable to connect is now able to connect to the video stream
Mar 31
12:40 PM
Joshua B.
has left the room
Mar 31
12:45 PM
Paul H.
has left the room
Geoff D.
has left the room
Mar 31
12:50 PM
Brett G.
has left the room
John S.
has left the room
Mar 31
12:55 PM
Don J.
has left the room
Lawrence K.
has entered the room
Mar 31
1:00 PM
Judi C.
would still like to know if anyone previously unable to connect is now able to (video or audio)
Don J.
has entered the room
Dana S.
has entered the room
Deb C.
i have video / audio now. didn't work this morning
Deb C.
ISEN: Can/will you make an attendee contact list/emails available on your site?
Mar 31
1:10 PM
Judi C.
Deb C: no, but we will try to make our video archives available
Judi C.
and thanks, Deb C for the update!
Steve S.
has entered the room
Tony A.
has entered the room
Mar 31
1:15 PM
David W.
has entered the room
John S.
has entered the room
kwerb
has entered the room
David W.
enemas communications?
Mar 31
1:20 PM
Bob F.
has entered the room
Bob F.
Sponsored by the NYT?
Alex G.
has entered the room
Glenn S.
More good music!!
Glenn S.
you have to give it to people who are willing to put themselves up in front of a group of technologists and then sing!
Rich M.
has entered the room
Justin H.
has entered the room
Mar 31
1:25 PM
Casey L.
has entered the room
Jeff
has entered the room
Jeff
Music, communicate with math.
Alex G.
Disney’s TV Unit Will Make Short Videos Available on YouTube New York Times
Tony A.
has left the room
Judi C.
If anyone posts photos from this conference on Flickr, would you please add the tag F2C09? I'd love to find them and post links to the F2C website.
Bob F.
Heard of Glasgow.
Judi C.
also, if you're blogging or otherwise writing about the conf, please let me know? I'd love to link to it.
David W.
(judi: I'm blogging it at http://www.johotheblog.com)
Judi C.
thanks David W!
Mar 31
1:30 PM
AKMA A.
Photos from morning session (and yesterday) at http://www.flickr.com/photos/akma/tags/f2c09/
AKMA A.
Judi, already done
MaryBeth H.
has entered the room
Judi C.
awesome, thanks!
Aleecia M.
has entered the room
AKMA A.
(CC licensed)
David W.
[SPOILER ALERT}
Bob F.
20 minutes
Brett G.
has entered the room
David W.
porn
Brett G.
Hee-Haw!
David W.
I love Celebrity Small Claims Court!
Brett G.
Judge Judy?
Dirk
has entered the room
Mar 31
1:35 PM
Justin H.
You are NOT the father!
Judi C.
Coverage of the conf now blogged on F2C: http://freedom-to-connect.net/blog/
Tony A.
has entered the room
Brett G.
In 1992, we -- as a co-op -- offered 2 Mbps (raw data rate).
shep
has entered the room
Doc S.
has entered the room
Bob F.
This reminds me of the days when we had Edison Light company offering light. It would be nice if we indeed looked at connectivity like sidewalks. Imagine if we treaed sidewalks as a service http://frankston.com/?name=Sidewalks.
Alex G.
yay no ppt
Philip R.
has entered the room
Doc S.
... but we do have the electric spider on the screen.
Geoff D.
has entered the room
Brett G.
Broadband isn't a public utility. If it were, you'd have to deal with bureaucrats at City Hall, things would take weeks to get fixed, and you wouldn't have innovation.
Alex G.
it's a morphing fiber tube filled with light
Justin H.
there's not much innovation in sidewalks these days
Paul H.
has entered the room
Jeff
Huge innovation in sidewalks and intersections in Holland
Mar 31
1:40 PM
Bob F.
I do worry about comingling these conflicting models -- distribute of electricity with sharing of bits. Information is not infotricity -- it's not a consumable.
Mar 31
1:40 PM
shep
it's what it looks like if you are a photon traveling through fiber.
Justin H.
"It's big in Holland" seems to be a theme at this conference
Brett G.
So is marijuana.... ;-)
Justin H.
and Youth in Asia
Dirk
big in Holland meaans as well far below sea level ;)
Jeff
Most Americans are against "Youth in Asia"
Jeff
Except Kerkorian
Stig
Are the lasers in fiber broadband still red? If so, then the inside of a fiber and parts of Amsterdam have something in common.
Bob F.
This reminds me of the accidental history of train guages going back to charriot wheel widths. Confusing cable with Internet connectivity is another accident of history.
fpaynter
Bob F. imagine if we tried highways as a service... oops, wait. We do. They're called toll roads.
fpaynter
or in this case "troll roads"
Dirk
Etrurian oxen carts was the story, limiting the size of the space shuttles auxiliary rockets
Brett G.
Actually, buses = "highways as a service." Make sure to distinguish the infrastructure from the service
Bob F.
Tolls on roads are not a service model -- they are an accidental revenue model because highways often have chokepoints. We don't see tolls on US 1 in the same way
Brett G.
Oh, and we also have cabs, limousines, etc.
shep
Ilyiwidwbr
Bob F.
We use a common infrastructure to implement a service. "Cable" content is another services that, like meter reading, should be just another service on the common infrastructure.
Mar 31
1:45 PM
John S.
Ok, one more time, don't be fooled by that Kentucky hayseed presentation of self. This is one smart guy.
Nick G.
has entered the room
Brett G.
This is why roads are an imperfect analogy to last mile broadband infrastructure. It's very hard to build new roads, but I was able to go out and build a new network
fpaynter
cabs, limos and buses are just different packet protocols
David W.
Yes, Brett, the creation of a basically free public infrastructure (= roads) has enabled the development of a vibrant transportation services industry.
leon j.
has entered the room
Brett G.
David W: The difference, again, is that it is infeasible to duplicate roads. It's very feasible to duplicate the last mile infrastructure.
Justin H.
but I hate driving... where's the inter-city light-rail?
fpaynter
hey, I have great video now, but can't get sound. is there a different URL from the rstp:// thing?
Bob F.
Let's be careful -- it's not "free" -- it's just funded as a common infrastructure. It allows you to take advantage of the low incremental cost for using the infrastructure and let the value escape to society.
Brett G.
It's the "middle mile" and the backbones that are infeasible to duplicate in the case of telecomm.
Peter C.
has entered the room
David W.
Conclusion of this discussion: Metaphors are a poor way to figure out policy.
Kent L.
has entered the room
Bob F.
But Verizon poaches Comcast cable by using Coax for IP distribution to their STBs.
fpaynter
David W. = chiropractor
Rich M.
David W: roads are basically free to use, but built at a significant cost.
Micah S.
has entered the room
David W.
Personally, among the rhetorical forms, I find hyperbole to be far more effective than metaphors.
Rich M.
agreed, Bob F.
Brett G.
In our area, the coax on your home is YOURS. Satellite operators can come in and take over the coax on a home when the home switches from cable to satellite.
Justin H.
roads are also built by taxes on gasoline
Brett G.
And they do.
Bob F.
David W -- we have to use metaphors but we have to be very careful to look past them to find the mismatches. It's similiar to assuming that anything that rhymes is true.
Mar 31
1:50 PM
fpaynter
is there a rhetorical form called parabole?
Brett G.
"If the shoe doesn't fit, you must acquit."
Bob F.
Roads are built. We then make up strories for getting people to pay.
Doc S.
Brett, this is Dish, DirectTV, or both? And what does it mean to "take over?"
fpaynter
back to sidewalk analogy now Brett?
Bob F.
Q: If Glasgow power is publicly owned is it feasiable to change the funding model to infrastructure for iP connectivity?
Kent L.
Is he talking about Duane Ackerman?
Brett G.
Run, Forrest, Run!
Justin H.
he was playing WoW
David W.
Bob f, I agree that we're stuck using metaphors, because understanding is the process of assimilating the old to the new. But, when dealing with the fundamentally new, the metaphors fail us. That may be the point at which understanding fails.
Judi C.
backyard innovation at its finest
Brett G.
Doc: This is any satellite system at all. People (or professional installers) detach the coax from the cable operator's box and attach the satellite LNB to it. Or they attach the output of the cable box (piped back out through the wall) to it.
Bob F.
David W -- eys
Bob F.
eys => yes
Brett G.
There most certainly WAS an Internet in 1992.
shep
there definitely was an Internet in 1991, it had been around for almost a decade by then.
Peter C.
.. but maybe not in Kentucky.
Bob F.
MCI taketh and MCI giveth
Geoff D.
has left the room
Brett G.
UK had it for nearly a decade by then. I know; I visited them in Lexington.
Rich M.
Bob F, your question to the Dutch guy during the last panel asked why he couldn't build the network as an infrastructure play vs an ARPU model and he replied that it wasn't allowed. How prevalent is this problem?
Alex G.
MCI got taken but that's another story
Mar 31
1:55 PM
Justin H.
This is a incredibly muni though... it's like pulling teeth to get funding for "something I saw in a catalogue"
Bob F.
Rich M -- that's a good question. I'd like to know. But I also want to know if he'd be an advocate for that position like he advocated "cable".
Justin H.
at least in my muni
David W.
"Internet? Whatever." - clasic
David i.
has entered the room
Brett G. 
Yes we'll walk with a walk that is measured and slow,
And we'll go where the chalk-white arrows go,
For the children, they mark, and the children, they know
The place where the sidewalk ends.
Rich M.
You mentioned that you'd like to join the fight. Me too. I was wondering if you knew how wide-scale the battle is.
David Y.
has left the room
Brett G.
Shel Silverstein, of course.
Bob F.
Good using a generic IP meter.
Brett G.
Much more expensive than using something other than Ethernet.
Brett G.
There are wireless meters that are self-powered -- powered by the motion of the water or gas.
Bob F.
The battle is wide-scale but, alas, asymmetric. We do need to be more organized and focused on shifting the model to infrastructure from telecom.
Stig
Infotricity? What about Electromation?
David W.
Shouldn't it be infotricity : electricity :: inforganic : organic ?
Brett G.
Infotrolium.
David W.
hits on google for inforganic: 20,600.
Bob F.
Good architecture decouples the elements so they can evolve. I worry that a smart grid like a smart network builds too much smarts into the archictecture. What we shoudl be talking about is intelligent devices cooperating on a dumb grid.
Brett G.
Thermostats: an argument against a "stupid network"
Dean L.
Judi, or those of you at home or office, a question came from outside: in addition to the video feed, is there a separate, pure audio feed coming from here? If yes, please post the URL here. Thanks.
Tony A.
I don't think I want a smart thermostat in my fridge to let the freezer go up to 45 during hot summer days.
isen
Brett, thermostats are edge devices
Kent L.
In addition to this chat group on Campfire, is there a hashtage for f2c on Twitter?
Bob F.
You want a smart thermostat -- not a smart-assed one.
David S.
has entered the room
Harold F.
has entered the room
Jeff
#F2C09
David W.
brettg ?? Thermostat is a smart device that can be plugged into a stupid network.
Mar 31
2:00 PM
Drew
has left the room
David W.
Ah, Jeff, the perfect "metadata as data" post. Well done!
Brett G.
A thermostat is in the middle, between the grid and the heater (which is at the edge)
Judi C.
Billy Ray: our entire national electrical decision-making process is based on $4 thermostats #F2C09
David W.
wrt: "A thermostat is in the middle..." etc.: Metaphors work until they don't.
Tony A.
We don't really need a smart grid. If the utility were to post rate schedules on the web, all I need is smart devices which consulted the rate chart to figure out when to run. We don't need intelligence in the power network - only at the ends.
Brett G.
And the best way to control the system is via intelligent throttling -- energy-width management
Don J.
TonyA: YES!
Bob F.
Actually Honeywell and others don't want to sell thermostats -- they want to sell "comfort" at $1000.
Rich M.
Yesterday I asked the Muni Wireless panel what the current state of affairs was on the push for telco-sponsored anti-infrastructure legislation? With the collapse of the Earthlink/Civitium business model, the telcos were given a breather, but I fear that they will return as soon as we organize anew. I was hoping that someone would have some new insight on how to persuade legislatures to go the infrastructure route.
JoePlotkin
has entered the room
David W.
"intelligent throttling" ... don't take the bait. don't take the bait.
Tony A.
A load of ants throttle a lot of stuff without central management
Bob F.
TonyA -- we are in agreement. I want devices with open interfaces so I can experiment with policies.
Casey L.
transformers within the distribution network benefit from smarts, too.
Bob F.
Yes -- we need to write the software -- that's why we need devices with open interfaces. If that's what is meant by th eintelligent grid that's great but misleading.
Brett G.
As I've said many times, the Internet would fall apart if it were really "stupid." But in fact, backbone routers are special purpose supercomputers which use intelligence to keep the Net running.
Bob F.
This is something I'm very interested in and exploring the idea. It's stuck because we are waiting for standards and building to silos like Zigbee and fiber. We need open interfaces like, perhaps XML. That's what I wanted to do with UPnP but Microsoft missed the point and tried to make it to smart.
shep
SMOP
Kent L.
I would be willing to sell my rights to set the thermostat in my house to the power company --within negotiated parameters -- for a discount.
Brett G.
UPnP is dumb, but in a different sense of the word.
David W.
brett g, no one thinks routers are dumb the way you're saying they're not.
Bob F.
The metaphore of organism is problematic. We need a metaphor more like a city (as Jane ? wrote) where we have disparate elements that can composite.
Brian W.
has entered the room
Mar 31
2:05 PM
Brett G.
Kent, that's exactly what broadband providers can do with bandwidth. They can proritize for you, in intelligent ways, to give you the best overall quality of service. That's why de-prioritizing P2P and prioritizing VoIP works.
Bob F.
But saying cheaper to build broadband is the SOURCE of the problem. All this requires is 1970's modem speeds to provide enough information. BROADBAND is a misdirection and has prevented this form happening.
Alex G.
Steve S.
I wonder ultimately if one of the toughest challenge here will be the complexity of touching legacy billing systems
David W.
Signing off. Have to catch a plane. Thanks for the GREAT conference!!
Justin H.
bob f's right
Steve S.
/wave David W
Brett G.
Dave, it's been fun debating with you even if we obviously disagree on some points. Safe travels!
Bob F.
Fat pipes are wonderful and useful. I'm just arguing that confusing passing information about electricity usage confuses the issue. It works well over fat pipes and if have them use them -- but we shoudln't couple the two issues.
Jeff
/Hasta David
Jen G.
has entered the room
Alex G.
Bob F's right -- most utility data (as of today) can use very low bandwith
Judi C.
Safe flight, David
Brett G.
Bob F: What is useful is the analogy between energy management and bandwidth management.
Brett G.
The bandwidth required to DO energy management is, indeed, trivial.
Jen G.
Jen G.
here's his link
Jeff
Mar 31
2:10 PM
Brett G.
Let's face it: Mankind won't react until climate change precipitates a crisis. And not just any crisis: one that impacts the powerful classes, which are somewhat isolated from disasters that affect most of us.
Mar 31
2:10 PM
JoePlotkin
so why are we trying to roll out rural ANYTHING?? Everybody needs to move to a city.
Tony A.
Try saying that in Congress, Joe.
Brett G.
And there will be "overshoot," because we can't fix the problems instantly. So, again, if you are under 60 years old, expect to live in "interesting times" before you kick off this mortal coil.
Brett G.
If you're under 30, expect them to get VERY "interesting."
Dirk
has left the room
JoePlotkin
Yeah dont get me started -- why the hell does Wyomiung get 2 senators for a few hundred thousand people?
Don J.
Instead of having the utility company control all the devices in our homes, can they lower the price during off-peak usage, and let buy & use devices that use power when we want to, and motivate us to use the cheaper power?
Erik C.
Legal groundwork more or less there in US for cap and trade / carbon reg; many US states already part of voluntary exchanges
Kent L.
Pigou has now entered the discussion. Why have a hidden tax which distorts behavior if you could have public taxes?
Tony A.
Brett: The most effective crisis would be a lot of expensive beachfront property getting destroyed by weird weather, and having the insurers refuse to pay.
christian A.
has entered the room
Brett G.
Wyoming gets two INEFFECTIVE senators, because the state was silly enough to elect a Congressional delegation which were all Republicans. We had one great Democrat -- a former ISP! -- on the ballot. He lost.
Geoff D.
has entered the room
isen
Brett -- try again next senatorial election!
JoePlotkin
Um, not the point i was making
Mar 31
2:15 PM
Brett G.
(Note that while I am slightly right of center, I am not partisan. I think that political parties in general are dangerous when they get too much power, and am worried about the Fed's extreme swing from total Republican rule to total rule by the Democrats.)
Judi C.
rewarding consumers (loyalty programs) would be WAY more effective if consumers thought they had any reasonable control over the data about themselves that everyone else controlled
Bob F.
I do agree that speed helps "virtualization" -- I'm just cautious about the promises. Could it be like highways that we increase the usage and vast power goes into server farms?
Tony A.
I'm all for rewarding people for "correct" behavior, but it's critical to get the incentives right, so people don't game it. When I bring my own bags to the grocery store, they reduce my bill by 2 cents per bag is use. So I use more bags than I need. :-)
Tony A.
Really, they should just charge me for the plastics bags I do use. But that would be unpopular.
Brett G.
Small incentives won't change this sort of behavior. It takes real pain. And that won't happen unless there are disasters. Sorry.... We cannot avert them so we might as well just plan for them.
David W.
has left the room
Micah S.
Did he say that instead of taking kids to school, you would just keep them on the bus playing games?
Justin H.
or wired light rail
Brett G.
It's a cool idea to turn school buses into mobile "LAN parties."
Judi C.
not quite. Buses drive the kids to school
Bob F.
Why not bring the school to the kids? 2 days a week learn at home, 3 days go to the building?
Brett G.
Bob F: Because that would present a real economic hardship for parents who must work.,
Brett G.
(outside the home)
Mar 31
2:20 PM
Brett G.
They would have to cut work hours or pay for child care
Bob F.
Again -- not triple play is a good idea but this sounds paying for sidewalks by taxing electric usage?
Judi C.
Bob, that would pose such a problem to the school industry
Kent L.
Brett, are schools for education or childcare?
Bob F.
If broadband is uesful then just make it available to save energey. Also let's simplify routers with better protocols.
Brett G.
Kent: Yes.
Bob F.
I argue that the current routers are unnecessarily complicated because we're stuck using a prototype when better protocols would be far simpler and with routers needing very little "smarts".
Justin H.
and these clean power sources listen to smart thermostats?
Jeff
+Bob
MaryBeth H.
has left the room
Brett G.
Today's routers actually are quite energy efficient. Their power supplies can put out 5 watts, max.
Bob F.
No wonder the icecap is melting
Justin H.
I want my own windmill for my business
Brett G.
And that heat isn't wasted unless it's hot out; it heats your home once it's done powering the router.
Alex G.
pay for green data center energy with carbon taxes and renewable energy
shep
geothermal power in Iceland!
Jeff
Northwest Passage, here we come!
Kent L.
what did he say? The "what" - Brooks Paradox. Increased efficiency leads to greater consumption...
Justin H.
that's a storage issue
Brett G.
My office as electric heat, and if I turn off the computers I save NO power because the heaters must work harder. So, it costs me nothing to leave the computers on 24x7.
Brett G.
Oops; "as" s/b "has"
Bob F.
Shifting power usage around the world is an interesting alternative to local demand-side management. Hmmm.
shep
Brett--- in the summer do you run A/C ?
Justin H.
I don't understand why people always talk about wave power or solar or wind all being intermitten... it's describing a storage issue, not a power generation issue
Judi C.
routing energy on the network like bandwidth
Jeff
Kent: Jevons Paradox
Jeff
Brett G.
Shep: A/C isn't needed where I live, even in summer. We rarely get a 90 degree day.
Mar 31
2:25 PM
Brett G.
We are fairly far north and at 7300 feet elevation.
Dirk
has entered the room
Justin H.
I really see more of an energy production cloud being the way to go
MaryBeth H.
has entered the room
Micah S.
By itself, the fact that there are a lot of registered lobbyists working on this issue shouldn't be "scary."
Justin H.
exactly Billy Ray... muni's have a huge problem doing anything forward thinking... because it's the people's money and they don't like anything perceived as risk
Bob F.
And Obama's hope for "clean coal"?
Brett G.
What's even more scary is that the registered lobbyists are the tip of the iceberg. There are huge numbers of people employed at DC lobbying organizations who are not registered (but should be required to)
Brett G.
"Clean coal" is possible, but not economical.
Bob F.
Windmills don't fit into the business model of a company selling fuel.
Mar 31
2:30 PM
Brett G.
You have to put a huge percentage of the energy back into the "cleaning."
Justin H.
especially when they have to buy the energy FROM you that the windmills generate
Brett G.
There isn't enough wind energy available to replace fossil fuels, alas. It'd be nice if there were.
David S.
has left the room
christian A.
has left the room
Justin H.
I mean on small scale... a cell tower, etc
Brett G.
I'm sure that Tom F. would say that it all comes back to population.... This may in fact be correct
isen
We're going to go another ten minutes, then a VERY SHORT break.
Sara W.
has entered the room
Justin H.
I think Mexico is doing really well at trying to become North America's third world country
Jen G.
Jen G.
"clean coal" from mountaintop removal.
Kent L.
Why is St. Arnaud focused on $645b for Cap and Trade...and not whatever revenue would be generated by a tax? The latter has lower transaction costs.
Tony A.
Let's enable ways for *anyone* to find solutions, not just power companies. Mandate that the power companies sell you power at different rates w.r.t. demand during the date, but encourage them to let smart meters send it over whatever network goes into your house. If any group of smart people could make appliances that would save me money, without waiting for big solutions, we would see solutions popping up like crazy. I don't want to cap and trade my consumption - I just want opportunity to minimize my costs.
Mar 31
2:35 PM
Sara W.
amen to that, Tony
Don J.
TonyA: YES (again!).
Brett G.
Tipping points: We don't know what's gonna tip, so it's going to be tough to be ready.
Jim B.
has left the room
Nicholas M.
has left the room
Erik C.
turned on guest access
Stig
WIRELESS POWER would solve that problem. Nikolai, where are you when we need you?
Erik C.
turned off guest access
Justin H.
isn't MIT doing something with wirefree energy?
Kent L.
shep
Stig
Bob F.
wi-tricity is the MIT related effort
Brett G.
My wife's an architect, designer, and builder going back to school for a degree in energy-efficient design and building. She's big on green roofs, wind and solar, etc.
Alex G.
has left the room
Brett G.
The good thing about USB power is that it forces devices to work within the power limitations of the standard
Mar 31
2:40 PM
Justin H.
So do planning commissions require new buildings have smart outlets? How are these ideas supposed to be engaged in small communities?
Bob F.
Smart devices more than smart outlets. A smart outlet seems to be a proxy for controlling the device connected to it.
JoePlotkin
there are no small outlets, only small actors
Bob F.
MicroUSB is a small outlet
Brett G.
As opposed to, say, a warehouse outlet?
Deb C.
has left the room
Harold F.
An important design principle: make it easy for people to do what you want.
Judi C.
I really look forward to the day when I can get rid of the 15 wall warts that I can't figure out which devices for, and devices that I can no longer power... so many configurations (that don't match).
Judi C.
Is this related to the socks that go in but never come out of the dryer?
Brett G.
Judi: You'll still need a "squid" that will let you connect everything to the one power supply
JoePlotkin
judi, static electricity. What do i win?
Bob F.
We do need to translate these measures into something people understand. $8/10 is a small percentage of the total cost -- does that mean that the savings are proportionally small?
Brett G.
As for the socks: they just inch off into the sunset
Judi C.
Joe, you win a wall wart!
Bob F.
Wait till Florida washes away.
Mar 31
2:45 PM
Harold F.
Not true. Burning stuff is pretty contributory.
Mar 31
2:45 PM
Kent L.
What about India?
Justin H.
well, Australia is hard to sustain anyway
JoePlotkin
Um, thanks Judi, sorta.
Harold F.
Indonesia and major parts of Africa are still making charcoal.
Harold F.
It's a huge industry that contributes hugely to deforestation and emissions.
Don J.
I'm leaving for the airport at the break, GREAT conference David! Bye gang!
Jeff
Free HBO... alluc.org
Brett G.
Great points. Would a crisis eventually hit the elite via rising oceans? Extreme weather? An uprising of underclasses more susceptible to various crises? War with countries that were more affected?
Casey L.
Bob F.
Las Vegas becomes a dry city -- H2O dry that is.
Judi C.
wishing safe flights to all who flew in for the conf!
JoePlotkin
Harold - you are correct, but the solution aint readily apparent
Brett G.
Somehow, I doubt that the fountains at the Braggadocio or Treasure Island would be allowed to dry up.
JoePlotkin
in those countries i mean
MaryBeth H.
christian A.
has entered the room
Don J.
Isolating people from real costs is also contributing to problems with our health care system, IMHO
Harold F.
JoeP I know. But we need to recognize that we can't solve the problem by ourselves.
Erik C.
has left the room
Brett G.
The pirates would be injured when they fell off the sinking ship. ;-)
Harold F.
Even if we cut emissions, it won't matter if huge portions of the world are still emitting.
JoePlotkin
True that Harold
Jeff
Heading back to Vermont in a tiny 7 seat Cessna. Bon Voyage!
Harold F.
We need to make this an aid focus.
Brett G.
Even if the rest of the US stopped emitting, the gases spewing from DC would still be an issue ;-)
Brett G.
Cool goodies! Someone drop my name in the hat. ;-)
Mar 31
2:50 PM
kwerb
has left the room
David i.
On clean coal see this book, Big Coal: The Dirty Secret Behind America’s Energy Future, Jeff Goodell, Houghton Mifflin, 2006
Shmuel F.
has entered the room
Shmuel F.
has left the room
Dirk
has left the room
Mar 31
2:55 PM
Rich M.
has left the room
Philip R.
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Nick G.
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Geoff D.
has left the room
Brett G.
Jeff: Chartered plane? Or self-piloted?
Jean R.
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David S.
has entered the room
Mar 31
3:00 PM
Stig
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Lynn S.
has left the room
Don J.
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Dana S.
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Casey L.
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Tony A.
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leon j.
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Micah S.
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Harold F.
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JoePlotkin
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MaryBeth H.
has left the room
Alex G.
has entered the room
Steve S.
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Jeff
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Aleecia M.
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Peter C.
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Kent L.
has left the room
Jen G.
has left the room
Casey L.
has entered the room
Tony A.
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Judi C.
Last session: what would you do with a whole lot of money to stimulate the economy?
Glenn S.
DOW UP 200
shep
has left the room
Mar 31
3:05 PM
Alex G.
Glenn: Charter bankrupt tomorrow, GM considering voluntary bankruptcy
Paul H.
has left the room
Brian W.
has left the room
Glenn S.
Charter has been going bankrupt for a long time
Justin H.
I feel like I'm on Oprah!
Glenn S.
Where is my free car
Alex G.
charter's been fighting like a fish but it goes into chapter 11 tomorrow
Kent L.
has entered the room
Brett G.
How can you bail out a fish?
Mar 31
3:10 PM
Steve S.
has entered the room
Steve S.
Jean has cool shoes, has anyone else noticed?
Glenn S.
Hard to see her shoes!!
Bob F.
Even better if it could be used by buses to report their location.
Bob F.
What's the normal monthly charge?
Glenn S.
She does have nice shoes!! and Feet!
fpaynter
has left the room
Brett G.
EVDO->Wi-Fi bridge: Cool idea, but if you open it up will you get huge bills for exceeding bandwidth caps? And if people are tapping in from other cars and following you, and you pull over at a rest stop, will you create a flash mob at the rest stop?
AKMA A.
If you are close to David I on the highway, don't pass; just stay within wifi range and surf from his signal!
Bob F.
Mesh network among the cars?
Brett G.
If it's a Wi-Fi network, you'd have to worry about collisions. ;-)
harold g.
has entered the room
Steve S.
criteria 1: gotta be from Chicago
Jen G.
has entered the room
Aleecia M.
has entered the room
Mar 31
3:15 PM
Jen G.
Worse, you'll have people tailgating you while surfing their laptops and talking on their voip phone. :)
MaryBeth H.
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Micah S.
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MaryBeth H. 
Regarding Carbon Cap and trade versus taxes:Taxes give you known price impact, but unknown emissions reductions.
Cap and trade gives you known emissions reductions, with unknown prices.

Given what's at risk, which would you prefer?
Justin H.
Doc S.
The apocalypse is so last Thursday. Just saying.
Justin H.
CTRL+L to make it full screen
Mar 31
3:20 PM
Micah S.
I hope this panel will discuss this story: Verizon, AT&T May Tell U.S. to Keep $7.2 Billion Stimulus Money. http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20090331….
Micah S.
Here's the key graf: "Unlike the businesses that welcomed the $787 billion stimulus package approved by Congress last month, the two biggest U.S. phone companies have reservations. They’re urging the government not to help other companies compete with them through broadband grants or to set new conditions on how Internet access should be provided."
Brett G.
Good points. It is well known that some parts of Massachusetts are poorly served -- the Berkshires in particular.
Nick G.
has entered the room
JoePlotkin
has entered the room
Brett G.
Micah: those conditions could deter deployment in places such as western MA. For example, the so-called "network neutrality" requirements could make it impossible for any effort, public or private, to remain financially sustainable.
Dana S.
has entered the room
Justin H.
from the article "The companies have remained noncommittal as they lobby to shape rules for the grants. " you think?
Brett G.
In short, they don't just affect the "big guys."
Kent L.
This is a powerful map. Is high speed wireless part of the mix of services mapped?
Glenn S.
has left the room
Steve S.
coming up on 2 years old though, I wonder how it's changed
Brett G.
Kent: Good question.
Justin H.
what about states that have rejected all stimulus money, like, South Carolina
Mar 31
3:25 PM
Kent L.
West Virginia has someone in a similar role who works with the ARC to focus on the broadband stimulus provisions.
Brian K.
has entered the room
Paul H.
has entered the room
David S.
has left the room
harold g.
has left the room
Steve S.
Brett G.
The states are, in some cases, trying either to take control of the money or to appropriate all of it. Many private providers who hoped to make use of it have been worried by this.
Dirk
has entered the room
Nathaniel J.
has entered the room
Mar 31
3:30 PM
christian A.
has left the room
Doc S.
Maybe it's the blind men making the elephant.
Brett G.
Question for the speaker: Were the proposed rules that were submitted partial to FTTH, or were they technology-neutral? Were they directed exclusively toward the last mile, or did they encourage funding of the more critical "middle mile?"
Doc S.
The elephant in the room is.... Hey, let's make one!
Bob F.
How do the broadband incentive $'s compare with the USF $'s?
shep
has entered the room
JoePlotkin
FUSF is $6 billion slush fund EVERY year. BB stimulus is just 1-time $7billion
Bob F.
So what if ...
Kent L.
Can a speaker give us a comment on the "public interest" standard for private sector applicants?
Mar 31
3:35 PM
Bob F.
The little dig in Boston
MaryBeth H.
Can Tom provide the link for the FTTH's comments/proposed rules for the BTOP and RUS programs?
JoePlotkin
What about the open interconnection requirement, also not yet defined?
Bob F.
Is there any opportunity to use the money to build applications and services that take advantage of connectivity infrastructure?
Kent L.
I've never, ever heard anyone say that a public filing system was worse than the FCC's!
Nathaniel J.
Steve S.
Nathaniel J.
Ken L- I hear that.
Justin H.
JoePlotkin
Bob, I think so
Mar 31
3:40 PM
Brian K.
has left the room
Doc S.
<geology> Global warming illustrated. Look at the cape and islands of Massachusetts on the wall. They were plowed into position by ice sheets that melted away not more than a dozen thousand years ago. </geology>
AKMA A.
And are in danger of being submerged
Bob F.
Why is it "broadband" rather than "connectivity"?
Casey L.
Bob F.
Sara W.
I always use "connectivity"....my little viral campaign. I would encourage others to do so also. Connectivity is what it is all about. That's why we are here.
JoePlotkin
Sara, you dont need to suck up to Bob.
Bob F.
Again we need to think in the small too - a bit commons can be shared. The problem is that we haev a complete lack of edge devices that can participate and we don't have a process for experimenting and learning. Instead we are trying to define the one holistic solutions. The funding is a positive -- the challenge is to encoruage distributed innovation.
Mar 31
3:45 PM
Drew
has entered the room
Bob F.
JoeP -- yes she does
Drew
Here comes the pitch... for a National Broadband Strategy!
Drew
Of, course, I mean this in the best of ways.... ]->
Justin H.
That's why I'm here!
Drew
Jim has truly herded cats into this U.S. Broadband Coalition.
Dean L.
Sara promotes "viral connectivity"
Drew
And it has changed the dialogue over this subject, because the telcos are no longer driving the train.
Bob F.
I worry that broadband is still modeled on telcos ... I use connectivity to emphasize that this is something different.
Justin H.
Judi C.
thx Justin, was just looking that up
Sara W.
I'm not sucking up. I mean it!!!
Justin H.
my googlefu is strong
Sara W.
jeez, get distracted for one moment and return to the discussion only to discover you are the topic. (joe, i know you know, i know you know better)
JoePlotkin
that'll school ya!
Bob F.
We need to redefine universal access in meaning that I can assume conectivity wherever I am so that we can do telemedicine and emergency services without worrying whether I have a billing relationship with the path.
Mar 31
3:50 PM
Richard B.
Harold has a nice beard.
Sara W.
dud you know, per the Consultant Debunker page in Fast Company, that herding cats is actually pretty easy?
Sara W.
Dean, per viral connectivity, are you suggesting i have a disease?
fpaynter
has entered the room
Richard B.
I have lots of fake data I can sell cheap.
JoePlotkin
reality is the new reality!
Judi C.
depends on what kind, size, and how many cats, no?
Sara W.
richard--you and about 2 million others!
Richard B.
Data must serve the party.
Justin H.
I'm kind of rocking the fifedom
Sara W.
the main question is: does it look like data? the word describing this characteristic, btw, is "face validity."
Brett G.
Harold has been a strong advocate of the "network neutrality" provisions in the stimulus bill, which (as Joe mentions) are ill defined.
Dirk
has left the room
AKMA A.
"fifedom" = woodwind broadband?
Richard B.
Most of the people at F2C support NN.
Dean L.
beware the rural Barney Feifdom
Richard B.
The best fake data used to be real.
Sara W.
in other words, it looks like data. I have actually heard other consultants stating to potential clients that their data had "face validity," not knowing what they were saying (viz, it looks like data), and being received with knowing nods, in respect of said consultants' gravitas
Brett G.
Richard: For what value of NN? No two people agree on a definition. And many who support their version of the concept still do not support legislation or regulation.
Kent L.
The preamble of the '96 Act not only contemplated but stated an explicit role for government in these areas. This is not a shift. To wit, "To promote competition and reduce regulation in order to secure lower prices and higher quality services for American telecommunications services and encourage rapid deployment of new telecommunications technologies.
Gary A.
has entered the room
Sara W.
how does one rock the fifedom? does it involve electronically amplified piccolo's?
Brett G.
Carriers are evil, right? They will, of course, never do anything that is in the public interest....
Sara W.
Richard B, you are obvioulsy a genius
Richard B.
When did the '96 act get reborn as something other than a colossal failure?
Dana S.
Actually, carriers, as they are currently constructed, overall they are "evil"
Sara W.
(and possibly, quite delusional--not that there is anything wrong with that)
Mar 31
3:55 PM
Dana S.
demonstratably
Richard B.
Thank you, Sara.
Sara W.
+++ to your Q about the 96 act!
Dean L.
Sara: how to rock the fiefdom? Make believe it is the casbah
Bob F.
Carriers are not evil nor good. It's a structual problem not a moral problem. We need to decouple the services from the physical elements.
Brett G.
I see: I am evil for bloodying my knuckles deploying broadband. Hmmm.
Sara W.
ok, this could be good. rock a moroccan place using amplified fifes.
Dana S.
where "evil" == acting against the public good
Sara W.
dean, i beg you: get help. now
Dean L.
morracan roll
Sara W.
(need i say more?)
Dana S.
you, Brett, aren't part of the "overall" due to your size
Bob F.
Yes Harold -- redundancy is not competition!
Dean L.
Harold Feld rocks the house!!!
Dana S.
Bob F+++
Doc S.
Meet the new boss. Nothing like the old boss.
Brett G.
Dana: I'd be hit harder than the big guys by regulation.
Stig
has entered the room
Dana S.
Its not a moral issue. There shouldn't be anything having to do with morality.
Brett G.
Harold: The value of NN regulation not only has not been "affirmed" (the stimulus hasn't happened yet) but is highly questionable.
Richard B.
Let's spend the next four years trying to define "net neutrality"
Dana S.
It is about recognizing how economics and marketplaces force companies to act, and that past behavior is a good indicator of future behavior
Kent L.
Lots of talk about the public interest. What is it? Where do I look up its definition?
fpaynter
Brett "Hit harder..." wouldn't that depend on the regulation?
Brett G.
Richard: Can't we instead spend the next four years building out the Internet to people who need it?
Richard B.
Real people care more about reliable networks than neutral ones
Sara W.
joeP: yes, but what is reality?
Bob F.
Cell phones are a lesson -- reliability is second to availability.
isen
xBrett ++ for that last one
JoePlotkin
You already know what i think. Really.
Bob F.
I want to recycle the incumbents rather than killing them.
Dana S.
What a concept: "Work for a living"!
Brett G.
fpaynter: Somewhat. But I have not seen a proposed NN regulation yet that wouldn't kill innovation, deter investment, and harm small and competitive providers more than large ones.
Sara W.
richard: it's always nice, in the face of an emergency, to gather a group and engage in a lengthy belly button gazing exercise before doing anything whatsoever
Richard B.
we've been building out Internet for 20 years, don't see why we'd stop now.
Brett G.
Richard: You're right about reliabiltiy
Nicholas M.
has entered the room
Doc S.
Brett, consider that you are now looking at people in power. Or close enough. What do you want from them, aside from no NN legislation?
Justin H.
can you apply for money, make you thing happen, see that it works, and apply for more money to work on other rural areas near your primary area?
Bob F.
We should be building "in" the Internet from the edge.
Dana S.
Brett: you != everyone/anyone else
Justin H.
or is it a one shot deal?
Mar 31
4:00 PM
Brett G.
Dana: I have been working 7 days a week rolling out broadband -- sometimes doing two solo installations a day. We ISPs are working our derrieres off.
Doc S.
I would like to ask the panel what the Internet is. And if it's more than "broadband."
fpaynter
less, I think Doc
Dana S.
Again, Brett, you != anyone else
Justin H.
Dana S.
You may be working for a living. That doesn't imply/signify anything anyone else is doing.
Bob F.
This right of way issue is very important. I find it very offensive that cities don't own their rights of way and don't own their poles.
Judi C.
Bob, didn't a lot of cities merely make a deal with the devil for "coverage"?
fpaynter
I find it offensive that they don't own the railroad tracks and hostpitals
Richard B.
The point of the stimulus is to get more people working, so NN plays an interesting role. It reduces network efficiency, which means you have to spend more to get less. That puts a lot of people to work. Hence, NN is good for the stimulus.
Bob F.
The reasoning goes back to railroads and would seem to be in violation of our basic rights. Why do cities and competitors have to beg back capacity from providers Isn't this an extreme conflict of interest?
Brett G.
Doc: Aside from not regulating me out of business, I would also like them not to discriminate against me. For example, the RUS program discriminates against new entrants; against small businesses (it completely excludes partnerships and sole proprietership); against providers who need to build out the "middle mile" instead of the last mile.
Sara W.
BobF: sometimes I think the best way to do anything is to install it where there are no people.
Doc S.
What would the panel propose to encourage innovation by incumbents?
Justin H.
there's no money in that Sara
Bob F.
IANAL but the deals on rights of way go way back -- railroads, gas lines etc. But we must reexamine this as part of providing connectivity. This is why i write about control from the edge.
Sara W.
because 99% of the problems, if not more, are located in people and social groups.
Sara W.
justin: you won't lose anything either
Brett G.
Dana: Why do you think that I am a special case? I have more than 4,000 colleagues. Small, independent, and wireless ISPs are the majority of ISPs in the US.
Bob F.
USF actually reduces our access by subsidizing local telcos so that they have incentive to maintain control of our wires. I hope we can revisit these issues.
Kent L.
Isn't the public interest the compilation of a group, a bundle of narrow interests? My stimulus check is the next guy's subsidy payment.
Bob F.
Communities should be own what is theirs.
Richard B.
Kent +++
Sara W.
justin: that may be true, but it's not the point i was making
Justin H.
I totally agree Joanne... I'm one of those rural groups
fpaynter
Bob F ++
Judi C.
good question Doc. I'd like to know too
Richard B.
Communities need to be ready to maintain what they own.
Mar 31
4:05 PM
Brett G.
Bob F: Everyone should own what is theirs. "Regulatory takings" are a serious problem.
Sara W.
most of the problems come from people. (pause for an opportunity to grasp the import and relevance of behavioral economics). If you don't know what you need to know about how to work with and/or around with this, your fine and virtuous efforts will devolve to: bupkes. (sp?)
JoePlotkin
Doc, I think they have proven that they are incapable of innovation, except as it extends their mARKET POWER
Bob F.
I hope this is a change in attitude - recognizing that we don't need to use a privateer model to create faux companies whose interests can, and have, diverged from the larger public interest. Worse we maintain them even if tehy aren't viable in the natural world.
Sara W.
i agree w/joe
Kent L.
Hovis is on to a really important point. Pelosi and congressional Democrats, the congressional GOP, a handful of GOP Governors and the new FCC/NTIA/RUS officials all have a stake in $7b being spent well.
Richard B.
The history of public broadband is a history of one project after another shutting down or being sold to a company.
Tony A.
RichardB: Communities are ready to maintain what they own. They maintain their roads and public areas. Sometimes they do it with full-time staff, sometimes by subcontracting. Running their own network should be no different than road repair.
Sara W.
i am totally w/joanne
Sara W.
True Dat!!!! (joanne)
Aleecia M.
Joanne is very, very good at this.
Dana S.
Yes! Joanne+++ Unserved is an urban issue too
Sara W.
she's right too
Sara W.
urban thing is HUGE
Richard B.
City council meetings where people debate the channel line-up on the city's triple play must be lots of fun.
Doc S.
Judi, or somebody, ErikC is trying to get back on and gets a 404 from the original email address. Is there another way?
Sara W.
also, there are a lot more people involved
Nicholas M.
on the right of way issue, local governments have been too often intimidated from asserting and protecting their full rights, and those of the citizens. The incumbents will always threaten expensive litigation whenever the local government tries to force the incumbent to internalize the costs of rights of way. Until we stop subsidizing the incumbents with free use of the public's property, we will never be able to make the incumbents open their poles and other right of way facilities to reasonable access by other users.
JoePlotkin
Urban is the new rural!
Dean L.
Dana ++
Brett G.
Try [link removed]
Dean L.
Joe: is that urban rerural?
Aleecia M.
I still balk at the idea of handing federal funding to Palo Alto
Alex G.
need many providers
Bob F.
A byproduct of connectivity and making "cable" just an app on the common infrastructure -- we no longer have to deal with intermediaries -- carriers or town councils -- arguing about channels.
Aleecia M.
But this is a great argument
fpaynter
Brett G. there
Sara W.
hey, philly is a good starting point.
Sara W.
it's a total disaster
shep
I raised my hand. That's what I've got now. What would I do with any more ????
Judi C.
Doc, ErikC, only one video and one audio stream. We have had problems with people connecting to the Quicktime server. Can't explain (noone has come up w any ideas about it and we have had considerable brain power in this area).
Kent L.
The network industries currently have a collective CapX of around $70b. It is likely to shrink by about 10% this year because of recession. The $7b of stimulus funds must be leveraged with the new, local projects described by Hovis AND the private sector spending.
Justin H.
Ug, honestly if Philly get's "rural broadband" money, I'll have a lot of unhappy farmers on my hands
Dana S.
"Served" can only mean symmetrical service
Doc S.
Joe, where I live I have a choice of two fiber providers and one co-ax (FiOS, RCN, Comcast). I use FiOS. I'm no fan of Verizon, but I'm glad they provide FiOS, and that they compete with the apparently clueless RCN by offering symmetrical service. (20Mb up and down.) That may not be a huge innovation, but it doesn't suck. I think there is much more that all three companies can do, however.
shep
"broadband" is the wrong word for all that stuff.
fpaynter
(brett)there are all kinds of public properties that have been usurped by private enterprise adherents. regulatory "takings" merely redraw the map
Bob F.
I worry about doing this by trying to define broadband. If we align incentives then we'd get gigabits easily. If we keep the current conflict of interest we'll see the definition gamed.
Richard B.
Nobody has honest 100 Mbs symmetrical. That's just PR nonsense.
Brett G.
Shep: You're correct. "Broadband" is a misnomer.
Dirk
has entered the room
Dana S.
high-speed internet
Casey L.
Richard: see Hong Kong
fpaynter
Richard B. I'm looking for Gigabit symmetrical
Bob F.
Underserved means my heart monitor can't reach my physician as I walk around. I see 1mbps changing the world, 10GBs won't do much more.
Brett G.
It's absolutely untrue that "wireless cannot reach those sorts of speeds."
Mar 31
4:10 PM
Dean L.
Richard B: except that PR nonsense only goes in one direction
JoePlotkin
Doc, but if Verizon decides to not allow server hosting? The issue is duopoly control of this infrastructure
Sara W.
also, it's both a county and a city, so the money is already in the metro area--but the suburbs that surround it are "well served." Believe me, philly has no power at the state level because there are too many "ferners," blacks, gays and French people (in short, not enough 'real Americans').
Dan G.
has entered the room
Dana S.
not even high-speed. Should be "reasonable-speed internet" >=20mbps symmetrical
fpaynter
tweet that
Brett G.
What's more, no one could afford that much bandwidth at the prices for which it goes in rural areas.
shep
Richard B. some people in Sweden (not sure how many exactly) have 1000 Mbps symmetrical.
Richard B.
Japan and Korea have an average throughput per speedtest well below their advertised speeds.
Sara W.
the rest of the state is rural and they hate us, also pittsburg, which is populated by miscreants as well
fpaynter
miscreants and malfeasers
fpaynter
malfeezers?
Doc S.
I think local governments are marginally more innovative than the carriers whose business models they leverage to pay down the costs of build-out. But all parties could do much more. All parties could look to the Internet not as "broadband" but as a platform for an infinite variety of new services and businesses, all built on maximized openness and other supportive properties that don't favor only the carriers' own service offerings.
Richard B.
These exaggerations shouldn't drive policy
Bob F.
Joe -- yes - blocking ports reduces broadband to be more like TV rthan connectivity.
Sara W.
fpaynter. indeed. the malfeasers abound.
Kent L.
I didn't know that most members of Congress were from urban Pennsylvania. :)
shep
100 Mbps would be better than the 1.5 Mbps that I have now. 1000 Mbps would be better than 100 Mbps. But the difference between nothing and 1.5 Mbps is much bigger than either of the next two steps.
Steve S.
question for those with symmetric access say greater that 10mb in the home, how often do you peak over 1mb up and for what?
Bob F.
You don't need to be innovative to provide a bit commons. the problem with innovation comes if we lock it down into a service model.
Brett G.
Our "lousy technology" is enabling business development; getting kids and families online; connecting seniors. And it is the most cost-effective technology available. The speaker should not disparage it.
Lynn H.
Doc ++
Sara W.
ahem, kent. in fact we are talking about the state legislature, where rural areas dominate
Brough T.
Remember latency is the cause, bandwidth is the cure.
Justin H.
if anything, isn't it unethical
Richard B.
My broadband connection has measured performance above 50 Mb/s, but it doesn't make me any smarter.
Dana S.
shep: true. connectivity is the first big step
Bob F.
Cities have no problem with complex sewer and water systems. They buy innovation by having real competition among providers and fungible bits allow for real competition in capacity and other measures.
Doc S.
Question for this panel: why did we hear nothing about the NTIA before the Obama administration. Not a political question. Just wondering.
Sara W.
and i believe state legislatures control a lot of the funds, as well as the ways in which funds are spent
Dana S.
but we should be pushing things forward on all fronts, not just connectivity.
Brett G.
Brough: Bandwidth cannot compensate for latency.
JoePlotkin
I have trouble getting tail circuits from Metro Ethernet carriers to get 10Mb to my small biz customers. In NYC.
Kent L.
Touche, Sara. Touche. I've worked in more than 40 states. I stand by the sentiment and amend for the specifics which legislature we're talking about.
shep
Given the choice of *real* Internet (routable IP address(es), no protocols or ports blocked) at 1.5 Mbps or what FIOS would offer (at 10s of Mbps) with some protocols and ports blocked, I'll take the real *real* Internet.
Brough T.
Also, if you have 1 GB LAN access inside your building, it's in the nature of TCP that you won't get 1 GB of throughput but you will get the latency of a 1 GBps connection
Brett G.
Joe: Many people who are requesting the moon don't understand either the realities of broadband delivery or the amounts that are actually needed.
Richard B.
BGP Community attributes can be used to advertise routes with QoS.
Sara W.
The legislature, btw, killed the initial plan to allow greater (but far from real) competition, which doomed phillywifi from the get-go
Sara W.
I REST MY CASE
Brough T.
Brett - when you are doing video conferencing over a T1 line, you are literally getting serialization delay due to the narrow pipe. That's the latency problem
Sara W.
SHE SPEAKS TRUTH
Brett G.
Again, municipal broadband should be a last resort. That's what Wyoming's law does.
fpaynter
Bob F.
Laws that conflate bit connectivity with telecom services MUST be addressed. These are anti-science ideology and must be challenged.
Mar 31
4:15 PM
Brett G.
Government shouldn't compete unfairly with private enterprise.
Kent L.
North Carolina is a Dillon's Rule state. In Raleigh, it is not an issue of technology and broadband, but state funding and local control.
Brough T.
Brett - even with my Fios connection, I have slow send times for large outgoing emails. That's latency which would be fixed by a 100 Mbps upstream link
Sara W.
oh, another thing: the legislature killed a set of stringent handgun controls just for the city, developed with broad local support, at a time when we were the murder capital of the country.
Sara W.
this is the way things work. I
Bob F.
Utopia, Lafayette and Amsterdam have all said they cannot provide infrastructure because of laws that say they aren't allowed to. That is causes real harm. We need to help liberate them from the being locked into the maws of telecom.
Alex G.
cheers for david and a cool conference
Brett G.
Brough: Due to windowing protocols, latency doesn't affect total transfer times significantly. Your problem is almost certainly NOT latency. It is most likely the bandwidth and/or computing capabilities of the server to which your sending.
Dirk
Richard Bennett: here they offer 1 Gb/s
Sara W.
"Laws that conflate bit connectivity with telecom services MUST be addressed. These are anti-science ideology and must be challenged." +++ thank you. (no i am NOT sucking up, joe.)
Brough T.
Brett - yes, there is also a TCP windowing problem. That was my second point.
Dirk
Brett G.
Brough: TCP windowing isn't a problem unless, again, there's a problem at the other end of the link. If you'd really like to diagnose this, contact me offline....
Richard B.
Pardon me if I don't choose to look to Communist China for America's broadband strategy, Dirk.
Sara W.
jeez, richard, was anyone suggesting that?
fpaynter
uh oh, red menace
Kent L.
Is there a corollary to Godwin's Law for Campfire discussions?
Sara W.
huh?
leon j.
has entered the room
shep
Brett, you're confused about TCP. You need to read Mathis, Semke, Mahdavi, and Ott: http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/old/mathis97ma…
fpaynter
McCarthy's Law
Sara W.
(to kent)
Richard B.
But there is a point - if we can use prison labor to pull fiber, that will lower costs.
Mar 31
4:20 PM
Dean L.
Burke's Law
Dirk
I agree to that, however comparing on tech level does not necessarily give one a 'red' infection...
Brough T.
Brett - I'm ok on TCP - both from the P2P approach of opening multiple parallel sessions and from the point of view of TCP sender enhancements developed by the high energy physics community. But thanks.
Kent L.
Jim W.
has entered the room
Steve S.
great image, it's the students doing homework at the airport for electricity, only with bits
Sara W.
how many of these laws are there? have they been corroborated by data or are they simply plausible arguments?
Judi C.
"plug and futz"
Dana S.
Steve: And this happens in the USA!
shep
(latency does matter, as explained in that paper)
fpaynter
judi ++
Lawrence K.
That is the most pathetic image... people in their cars parked outside the library at night with the kid trying to do their homework accessing the only source of broadband wifi.
Brett G.
Shep: I was getting my MSEE at Stanford when TCP was first rolled out. Believe me, I know more about it than I care to.
Sara W.
psst: "Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)[1] is an adage" from Kent's link. Note it is NOT a law, it is an adage.
Sara W.
hmmph.
Sara W.
/crankiness
Richard B.
TCP window *recovery* is profoundly affected by latency
Sara W.
they're red because they are "compsymps?"
shep
BTW, that Mathis et al paper won the "test of time award" at the SIGCOMM conference last year.
Richard B.
All other things being equal, TCP throughput is the inverse of latency because of AIMD.
Nicholas M.
Brett--can you point to a single community where a muni owned operation has "driven the competition" out of town? I do know of several places where trully terrible incumbent service did not survive when the local government finally said "enough". But the private sector response was not to compete and improve but to abandon the community.
Brett G.
Richard: Yes. But you don't have that problem unless packets are dropped, which may be the real problem.
Bob F.
And wasn't it amazingly easy to light up the copper to DSL! Hmm ...
shep
Brett--- then you should know that TCP throughput (from 1989 through today) does depend on round trip time.
Brett G.
Nicholas: Powell, Wyoming. We will never deploy there. They've given away the farm to an ILEC.
Richard B.
The Internet drops TCP packets by design, Brett.
Sara W.
who doesn't?
Bob F.
Competition -- if a community can offer connectivity as infrastructure it is not providing a telecom service. The service providers can then offer their services over the common infrastructure.
MaryBeth H.
has left the room
Bob F.
As I've said -- why is DSL running at 20 year old speeds. Shouldn't DSL be 100MBps by now?
Brett G.
Shep: Throughput in the long run reaches the same level with long round trip times; it just ramps up more slowly.
shep
Brett--- no, you're wrong. read that paper.
Richard B.
VDSL is in the 50-100 Mbs range right now, Bob F.
Mar 31
4:25 PM
Brett G.
Richard: The Internet drops packets only if its best efforts to deliver them fail.
Tony A.
Yeah, but Brett, you throttle back file sharing, so your customers will never see the long run of that ramp up.
Richard B.
Most of the so-called fiber connections in Japan use VDSL for the last 500 feet.
Bob F.
What is the availability of VDSL and provisioning? I'm talking about electronics using existing copper -- as copper not pairs.
Dirk
broadband in former communist Slovenia, 50 Mb is 50 euro, 100 Mb is 100 euro so 1,000 is 1,000 http://www.t-2.net/?AUID=4DE65011E194120110C6
Bob F.
And 500 ft isn't 12000 feet.
Richard B.
All the carriers who don't have FiOS have VDSL, Bob.
fpaynter
don't confuse us with facts, Richard.
Brett G.
Tony: If a particular type of traffic is throttled, that traffic simply approaches the amount of bandwidth allocated to it.
Steve S. 
even more amazing!
Bob F.
It's amazing what virtual realithy can do
Jen G.
...but the internet is still wonderful.
Steve S.
it's the 65 mb symmetric that allowed this
Micah S.
any way of getting those two maps's urls?
Steve S.
Steve S.
that's one anyway
Steve S.
we need mr. googlefu for the other
Brett G.
Jim Baller: Capital costs are only one aspect of a project. It also must be sustainable in the long run. Otherwise, it will ultimately lose more than that initial funding.
Micah S.
steve, thanks, mr google gave me this http://www.google.com/url?sa=U&start=1…
Justin H.
I'm trying to find coverage maps for my state.... FUS says they have info, http://broadbandsearch.sc.egov.usda.gov/Se… but I don't know if I can rely on that data
Brough T.
Brett - there's a good TCP white paper by some Cal Tech high energy physic types who have done a start up addressing TCP acceleration. The paper is a lighter weight version of academic stuff from 2001-2003. Look here: http://www.fastsoft.com/white-papers/
Bob F.
QUESTION: That's why I am asking whether we are talking about broadband services or a model in which we are building infrastructure paid for as a commons with wireless access. Can we discuss this?
shep
I've got to drop off this group chat, but will be physically in the room until the end. Anyone wanting a ride to BWI (airport or rail station) I'll be driving right by there on my way north.
Peter C.
has entered the room
Mar 31
4:30 PM
Nicholas M.
Brett: is this the Powell WY project you are complaining about?
Nicholas M.
Bob F.
Is Nantucket underserved?
Sara W.
I'm curious, what if the maps represented not geography as the unit of measurement, but instead population density, age, wealth or poverty, etc.
AKMA A.
My mom on Nantucket has cable
Richard B.
Of course, the steady state throughput of TCP isn't much affected by latency, at least that was the goal.
Micah S.
is the underlying data that went into making either map available anywhere?
Brett G.
Nicholas: I wouldn't characterize my comment as "complaining" but rather "expressing regret." We wanted to serve that area, but now it is economically infeasible for us to do so.
Steve S.
and so she should AKMA, the fcc map says she has choices of 4-6 different broadband providers
Doc S.
So... how are the munis not the new CLECs... hiring high powered DC lawyers, etc.?
Micah S.
cause then we could mash it up and see how it correlates to local socio-economic factors
Sara W.
unit of measurement makes a big difference. for example, the zip code as a unit of measurement is only meaningful in the case of a comparatively sparsely populated location. in a city, the block group often includes more people than an entire zip code
Alex G.
does pro-competition = anti-trust?
Sara W.
yup. Micha++++ things look quite different then
Justin H.
I found the SC chapter, not that anyone but me would care: http://connectsc.org/
Sara W.
and, more accurate/meaningful, i might add
Brett G.
"Up to?"
Bob F.
I've got Comcast and FiOS side by side but packets between the two can go Newton=>NY=>CHI=>Newton. this makes it difficult to use as infrasructure and 50Mbps isn't reallhy 50Mbpds over such paths.
Doc S.
Is GPON obsolete, really? I think that was the question.
Kent L.
has left the room
Stig
has left the room
Bob F.
They are like railroads -- they only provide what is profitable to them rather than on what the community needs.
Richard B.
Comparing suburban FiOS to urban fiber in a country with no copyright laws is pretty lame.
Brett G.
If a user consumes 100 Mbps symmetrical 24x7, he or she had better be prepared to pay for it.
Doc S.
RCN could leapfrog Verizon in Mass. But they're not bothering. No idea why.
Mar 31
4:35 PM
Richard B.
China is piracy heaven, so content is free. That drives the desire for faster pipes.
Bob F.
But if we have three broadbands we have 3x the cost and thus 3x the price. This is why power lines collapse into a single system. Why hasn't broadband collapsed into a bit commons?
Richard B.
Piracy and Porn.
Nicholas M.
RCN has no capital to invest. They are just holding on until they either find a buyer or they can get enough retained earnings from existing service to invest more in the network.
Doc S.
I think the LUS Fiber local p2p 100Mb symmetrical service approach is a good model for the Verizons and RCNs of the world. Not in speed offering, but as a platform for local business suppport.
Brett G.
When one does mapping, one must not reveal the carriers' proprietary coverage data. One must aggregate the data. (which is just as good at identifying unserved areas). Otherwise, a map would enable anticompetitive practices.
John S.
Brett, Don't you mean that it would enable all-to-efficient competition?
Sara W.
damn. it turns out you can lie with maps just like you can lie with statistics
Casey L.
Brett: why not make available any information that a consumer could get by phoning the provider?
Nicholas M.
is Verizon's topology obsolete?
Doc S.
Backing up to Amazon S3 and using EC2 compute is not piracy or porn, but does like a lot of capacity. And is likely only to increase, along with other legitimate uses.
John S.
Casey L. Yes..
Sara W.
i've spent the past three years trying to map incredibly accurate, detailed databases to US geographic units, which should, in theory, be possible. So far, the results = a massive headache on my part but no meaningful maps.
Brett G.
John: No. If the goal is to identify unserved areas, there is no benefit to revealing proprietary coverage data. However, if one reveals this data, one is enabling anticompetitive tactics. We've seen such tactics when cable and telephone companies change the terms they offer, literally block by block, to undermine competition.
Sara W.
google mashups don't come even halfway close to accomplishing what i need. if anyone has any advice, i'd love to know it
Mar 31
4:40 PM
Brett G.
Casey: One would have to phone the provider hundreds of times to get that data.
Mar 31
4:40 PM
Aleecia M.
Sara W: a friend is big into mapping stuff. let's talk. aleecia@aleecia.com
John S.
Suppose the goal is to enable rational decisions by users and policy-makers? About not only presence or absence but levels of quality?
fpaynter
Doc: Backing up one's porn and pirated content to Amazon,,,
Sara W.
check out census.gov, esp. the economic census (on that page). a lot of the data he's looking for is already there
Doc S.
One 50,000 foot view: After the smoke has cleared, the only ones standing are government and gear vendors. Might be a superficial view, but that's one take.
Casey L.
that's not the point.
Sara W.
yup, Doc++
Sara W.
but depressing.
Sara W.
and unacceptable.
Justin H.
don't forget the ditch diggers, doc
John S.
I do not deny that destructive competition exists. And I worry for my own city about it. But it is really worth being accurate about: all-too-efficient competition.
shep
has left the room
Jim W.
has left the room
Brett G. 
In a real census, it is well known that people will not report accurate information 
(or even answer the door when the census taker comes!) if they believe that sensitive personal 
information will be published, or even warehoused and possibly released at any time in the near 
future. Even when the government does make assurances that data will be released only in aggregated 
form, many people belonging to certain groups — such as Hispanics (including those with legal 
residence and/or citizenship) and more recently Muslims — believe that the risk is too great that 
the data will get out or be abused and opt out of the census.

Now, think about what it might be like for a small businessperson, in a line of business where 
anticompetitive tactics are rampant and government protection of competitors is nil, to be asked 
to participate in a “census” where detailed data about his or her would be published, not 
anonymized, and not aggregated. This person’s livelihood and personal fortune are at stake here, 
in a way that you could not imagine unless you yourself had skin in the game.

This is why the FCC wisely told ISPs that if they checked a specific box on Form 477 (its broadband 
survey form), their proprietary information would be kept private. Even with that assurance, there 
has been a tremendous amount of underreporting due to fears that the proprietary information on the 
forms would be leaked. To see a very good discussion of this by the FCC’s Wireline Competition Bureau, 
see http://projects.publicintegrity.org/docs/telecom/telecomfoia/09.1%20Statement%20of%20Facts.pdf.

We must respect the hard working people who are out there actually deploying broadband to unserved 
areas, many of whom are justifiably worried that a huge megacorporation will find a way to squash 
them or “cut off their air supply” (as a Microsoft exec once famously put it). Every day, I work 
incredibly hard, against incredible odds, to keep my ISP business running and my customers satisfied. 
Should the government be gathering competitive intelligence for large corporations that want to put 
me out of business? I think not. If you want to see more competition and better coverage, don’t harm 
competitors by enabling anticompetitive tactics.
Richard B.
People don't choose to buy highest-tier broadband in the US as it is. Nobody cares about 100 Mbs service, they want 5-10 and lower price.
Doc S.
The competition that matters most is the kind that's opened up among many businesses using abundant bandwidth. You want the whole yellow pages supported by the Net. Not just three "plays".
Richard B.
Fatter pipes to the home mean more congestion in the core, and that means more dropped packets and more latency.
Dan G.
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Brett G.
John: Alas, what it is about -- due to the practices of the incumbents -- is all-too-efficient ANTIcompetitive practices.
Richard B.
Public financing is the only way to build services that people don't really want.
Mar 31
4:45 PM
Brett G.
Richard: That's a good quote.
Richard B.
Feel free to use it, Brett.
Doc S.
Richard is right. Right now most customers don't care much for higher bandwidth. They don't know what they don't know and have never experienced. But in time uses will change. What we don't want is to prevent those new and better uses -- and the businesses that support them.
Justin H.
So we have to be inventive, but not crack-pot
Micah S.
Richard, really?
Micah S.
People don't really want clean water?
Steve S.
David's device on commuter trains and buses doesn't seem so misplaced to me
Richard B.
Carriers actually do a pretty good job of gauging what people are willing to pay for and providing it.
Susan E.
People don't understand speed - pew internet study said something like 70% don't understand.
Dirk
even here they have broadband http://www.hotelicopter.com/
Lawrence K.
NSF for example, requires their applications to address "broader impacts", and "specific aims" .
Susan E.
we need to change the language so people can understand what speed ENABLES.
Jen G.
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AKMA A.
People may not want higher bandwidth, Doc, but I'll bet they do want to be free from the sense that a monopolistic or oligopolistic telco is jerking them around.
Richard B.
When I upgraded my home connection from 16 to 50 Mbs the difference was barely noticeable.
JoePlotkin
AKMA +++++
AKMA A.
/blushes
Alex G.
here's one built with RUS (not NTIA) funds: http://www.isp-planet.com/profiles/2007/ja…
Dirk
Richard Bennett: is that a windows PC with that 50 Mb?
AKMA A.
"eruptions of policy"
Richard B.
Most people aren't on an anti-telco jihad, and they also don't confuse Google with Jesus.
Sara W.
thanks Aleecia!
Nathaniel J.
I missed the name of that $100m California grant program?
JoePlotkin
Break up Ma Bell AGAIN!!!
Lawrence K.
1996 act, breakup of ATT....and looks where those things ended up.
Stig
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Richard B.
I have a network of several machines, Dirk, about half Linux.
Mar 31
4:50 PM
JoePlotkin
Proxmeyer is still dead, yes?
Susan E.
CASF - California Advanced Services Fund
David Y.
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Bob F.
yes 16 MB '-to 50 MB is litle different
Nathaniel J.
Thanks, Susan E
Nicholas M.
Richard: the carriers are pretty good at using controlled supply to price discriminate among different consumers. Their goal is maximizing profit, not finding the point where demand and supply are in balance. They do not want to charge all users the same price, but different users different prices. That's the way to maximize profits.
Susan E.
CASF is funding dumb stuff along with good stuff.
JoePlotkin
Dont confuse the 84 breakup with the 96 Act
AKMA A.
"Most people aren't on an anti-telco jihad" -- right, but they hate "the cable company" or "the phone company" because they sense that a large corporation is taking advantage of them with inferior service for high charges
Richard B.
The trouble is that most web services aren't fast enough to fill a 50 Mbs pipe as it is.
Nathaniel J.
i keep grains of salt handy
Susan E.
dumb stuff is basic DSL installation to small portions of underserved communities 2 years from now.
Susan E.
funded to AT&T.
Nathaniel J.
oy
Doc S.
AKMA, I'm not so sure. Right now we mostly have the experience of duopolies. If a household has a choice between 756/128kb for $14.95 and 5Mb/1Mb for $34.95, I'm betting they go for the former. Today. Again, this will change.
Richard B.
Most Americans aren't socialists, AKMA, but that may be changing.
Stig
On the earlier issue that involved hundreds of call to determine rates... Would be a great application for mechanical turk or crowdflower.
Steve S.
adding to AKMA, or ticked off they pay high prices seeming to fund an infiniate advertising budget to their wireless or cable so that they can constantly fight and churn the same people
SLW
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AKMA A.
Richard, don't elide "justifiable suspicion of corporations" with "socialism"
Dirk
OK,may well be you need some tweaks. Moat hard & software is not optimized for higher speeds. Learned some lessons on that in Amsterdam...
AKMA A.
For one thing, active competition could drive higher speeds/better service/lower charges
John S.
Dirk, we're finding the same in Lafayette.
Susan E.
CETF - California Emerging Technology Fund -- is funding broadband adoption programs. CASF is funding actual builds, but only to CLECs.
Bob F.
I'd like to ask if we can use the Money for infrastructure rather then services as Utopia, Adm et al asked for
Richard B.
I've measure the speed, Dirk, and I'm getting the whole 50 Mbs end-to-end with Speedtest. But the web still runs as it did before. The Internet is end-to-end (like all networks), so addding capacity in one place doesn't make the system run any faster.
Susan E.
go, harold, go!
Sara W.
the cold war died, remember?
Casey L.
Bob F: Yes.
Richard B.
AKMA, I'm just as suspicious of do-gooders with happy little bunny rabbit dreams as I am of carriers.
Mar 31
4:55 PM
Dirk
John St. Julien: so we may need a site where we bring together some tips. F.e. routers can be very bad to very good etc.
Justin H.
surely he jests
AKMA A.
I'm surprised that you cop to being suspicious of arriers at all, given what you've been ssaying
AKMA A.
s/ arriers/carriers
Sara W.
discrediting another's argument by hyperbolically likening it to a dead, poorly implemented application of a theory developed well over a century ago does not constitute a credible counter-argument
Richard B.
I do business with carriers, and see them screw up all the time due to ineptitude.
Bob F.
Casey-tell me more. Does it preempt state laws?
Dirk
Richard Bennett: changing your RWIN value (upwards) can make a huge change, among others.
John S.
Dirk, Yes! I am sure you've found all the potholes we would like to miss. :-)
Casey L.
Bob F. - not clear. Harold has some thoughts on that, I believe. Community Broadband Act would do so more definitely.
Richard B.
The thing that scares me about net neut is that it's driven by lawyers whose knowledge of networking is limited.
AKMA A.
Cool, then let's agree that (a) service could be better, (b) no single mode of delivery or supply solves all problems, (c) straw arguments distract us from extracting better connectivity
John S.
The router thing is a real issue that our tech guys are trying to get ahold of...not all routers can handle real bandwidth.
Dirk
John St. Julien: Herman found even more, but the he 's the one with the tech MSc...
Gary A.
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John S.
You've got my email :-) and I'll be in touch.
JoePlotkin
We dont need net neutrality if common carriage is restored, vertical integration disaggregated.
Sara W.
joe+++
Aleecia M.
Anyone going to IAD tonight willing to give me a ride?
Justin H.
what if you ask for $250,000? does that mean you will not get it because you needed less?
Dirk
I have no shares in them, but my DlinkDir655 works fine, their 855 seems quite okay as well
Mar 31
5:00 PM
Dana S.
has left the room
Alex G.
anyone from community groups?
Bob F.
yes monitor this a powerful reason for infrastructure
Brett G.
has left the room
Brett G.
has entered the room
Richard B.
Dirk, Vista has an auto-adjusting RWIN, so there's no more registry key for it.
Steve S.
topic not discussed this f2c: 3g wireless (not wireless isp) for mobile on the go freedom to connect, regulation of same, packet discrimination of same. Does the mean age in the room leave us a blind spot?
Brett G.
Finally back... Had to do urgent tech support for a customer.
Richard B.
AKMA, it looks to me like people have the connectivity they want today, There's no conspiracy. The boondocks are a special case, of course.
Mar 31
5:05 PM
Susan E.
steve s.: yup. my 19 year old says - email is for old people.
Brett G.
I really hope that they let small businesses apply at all.
Tony A.
Anyone heading to NYC via amtrak tonight?
AKMA A.
Richard, I haven't said anything about conspiracies; don't know where you got that. If you think (a) service couldn't be better, (b) some single mode or supplier will solve all problems, (c) straw arguments (like accusations about conspiracies and socialism) advance connectivity, then we disagree
Steve S.
why are my sms bits priced higher than my data bits, and why are voice bits different
Richard B.
Portland's muni net is bankrupt.
Brett G.
It sounds, frankly, like the requirements in some of these proposed rules are targeted toward large entities.
Doc S.
Punching out. It's been real. Big kudos to David I for putting this on, to everybody on the backchannel -- especially the contrarians (in this venue, at least), to John Jorgenson & the Quintet... rock on.
Richard B.
Good to see you again, Doc.
Nicholas M.
has left the room
Richard B.
AKMA, the modal competition model we have in the US works pretty well.
Dirk
and this is the way they do fiber in Oman http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzOAXhXZ_js
AKMA A.
Richard, glad you're satisfied.
Richard B.
Peel back the hype, look at all the costs, understand what people want, and overall we're pretty happy with our broadband networks.
AKMA A.
Logging out for this conference -- later, all.
Richard B.
Do they use Vista in Oman, Dirk?
Brett G.
Don't forget to thank Dewayne.
fpaynter
and judi
Alex G.
has left the room
Dirk
Vista I wouldn'tb know, TNT a lot apparantly...
Brett G.
Yes, and Judi.
Anders F.
And the theme for 2010 is.... ?
Richard B.
Thanks, DeWayne. And everybody go check Dirk's YouTube - it's kick ass.
Richard B.
Thanks to all for being good sports.
Mar 31
5:10 PM
Brough T.
Is anyone going to Washington National? (oops - Reagan airport)???
Judith H.
yes she did a great job dealing with all the technical problems
Judi C.
Broadcast going offline. THanks for your patience, support, and for tuning in!
Anders F.
Thanks Judi!
Judi C.
I'll see if we can get the presentations and streams online in the next few days. Stay tuned. No promises.
Judi C.
you're welcome Anders
Judith H.
thanks. Yes would love to see the powerpoints
Brett G.
Resolution wasn't good enough for video viewers to see the slides, so, yes -- this would be great.
Anders F.
And 10k Thanks David!!!
Michael R.
Judi, thanks for making it possible for us remote participants to enjoy most of the rich insights of F2C 2009!
Michael R.
And say thanks to David. I hope I can make it next year.
fpaynter
Michael R. spoke my mind... thanx Judi.
Lynn H.
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Micah S.
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Mar 31
5:15 PM
Bob F.
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Tony A.
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JoePlotkin
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Lawrence K.
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Doc S.
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leon j.
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Mar 31
5:20 PM
AKMA A.
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Mar 31
5:25 PM
Drew
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fpaynter
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Mar 31
5:30 PM
Stage
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Mar 31
5:40 PM
Screen
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Mar 31
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Judith H.
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Mar 31
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← Monday, March 30.html

 

F2C 2009 Group Chat

People in this transcript

  • AKMA Adam
  • Aleecia McDonald
  • Alex Goldman
  • Anders Fernstedt
  • Andrew Revkin
  • Barlow Keener
  • Bob Frankston
  • Brett Glass
  • Brian Kaye
  • Brian W
  • Brough Turner
  • Casey LIde
  • Catherine Middleton
  • Charles Brown
  • christian A
  • Costas Troulos
  • Dan Aloia
  • Dan Gillmor
  • Dana Spiegel
  • David Blumenstein
  • David in Oslo
  • David Shaw
  • David Weinberger
  • David Young
  • Dean Landsman
  • Deb Canale
  • Dirk
  • Doc Searls
  • Don Jackson
  • Drew
  • Erik Cecil
  • fpaynter
  • Frans-Anton
  • Gary A. Bolles
  • Genny Pershing
  • Geoff Daily
  • Glenn Strachan
  • Harold Feld
  • harold galicer
  • Herman Wagter
  • Hilarie Coate
  • Isabel Walcott Hilborn
  • isen
  • iz
  • Jean Russell
  • Jeff
  • Jen Gilomen
  • Jerry Baxley
  • Jim Baller
  • Jim Williams
  • Jim Youll
  • JoePlotkin
  • John St. Julien
  • Jon Lebkowsky
  • Joshua Breitbart
  • Judi Clark
  • Judith Hellerstein.com
  • Justin Heyward Lynes
  • Ken DiPietro
  • Kent Lassman
  • kwerb
  • Lawrence Keyes
  • leon jackler
  • Lev Gonick
  • Lynn Hughes
  • Lynn Stanton
  • Marvin Golden
  • MaryBeth Henry
  • Micah Sifry
  • Michael R. Nelson
  • Michael Weisman
  • Nathaniel James
  • Nicholas Miller
  • Nick Givotovsky
  • Norman Jacknis
  • Paul Hyland
  • Peter Capek
  • Philip Rubin
  • Rafael DeGennaro
  • Rich MacKinnon
  • Richard Bennett
  • Robb Tanner
  • Russell Senior
  • Sara Wedeman
  • Scott Berry
  • Screen
  • shep
  • Shmuel Feld
  • SLW
  • Stage
  • Steve Smith
  • Stig
  • Susan Estrada
  • tim
  • Tony Aiuto

Files in this transcript