F2C 2009 Group Chat — Monday, March 30

← Sunday, March 29 | Tuesday, March 31 →

Mar 30
12:05 AM
Thomas L.
has left the room
Mar 30
12:10 AM
Russell S.
has left the room
Mar 30
12:45 AM
Dana S.
has left the room
Mar 30
4:35 AM
Brough T.
has entered the room
Brough T.
Off to the airport. See you soon.
Brough T.
has left the room
Mar 30
6:35 AM
Rafael D.
has entered the room
Mar 30
6:50 AM
Rafael D.
has left the room
John S.
has entered the room
Mar 30
6:55 AM
John S.
has left the room
Mar 30
7:05 AM
Lawrence K.
has entered the room
Lawrence K.
has left the room
Mar 30
7:35 AM
Stage
has entered the room
Ram M.
has entered the room
Mar 30
7:45 AM
Ram M.
has left the room
Mar 30
7:50 AM
Screen
has entered the room
Mar 30
7:55 AM
Fred J.
has entered the room
susan m.
has entered the room
Mar 30
8:10 AM
Fred J.
has left the room
susan m.
has left the room
Mar 30
8:20 AM
Don J.
has entered the room
Mar 30
8:25 AM
John S.
has entered the room
David Y.
has entered the room
Alex G.
has entered the room
Stig
has entered the room
Alex G.
hi all alex and melissa her
Steve S.
has entered the room
Alex G.
good music!
Steve S.
Hiya all!
Mar 30
8:30 AM
Stig
Any decisions on the hashtag? #f2c or #f2c09?
Dean L.
has entered the room
David Y.
Very good music!
Dean L.
hello
Britt B.
has entered the room
David B.
has entered the room
David B.
hello dean
Dean L.
greetings are sent in absentia to all from Jerry Michalski, RageBoy, Identity Woman (aka Kaliya) and David Blumenstein (aka david dot com)
Deb C.
has entered the room
Dean L.
aha, David B is here after all, via campfire
Ram M.
has entered the room
Ram M.
turned on guest access
AKMA A.
has entered the room
Judi C.
has entered the room
Robb T.
has entered the room
Judi C.
The video stream for your QUICKTIME (not Real Player) viewing: rtsp://odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp
Stig
Hi Dean! Will be virtual for an hour or so, till the FIOS guy leaves.
Mar 30
8:35 AM
Shawn W.
has entered the room
Tony A.
has entered the room
Tony A.
Good morning campers.
Dean L.
save your copper,Stig -- don't let the FIOS person remove it -- you might yet want it for some other purpose!!
Bob F.
has entered the room
Ken D.
has entered the room
David B.
Quicktime at the ready :)
Stig
I told them I wanted to reactivate my ISDN line. He fell for it.
Anders F.
has entered the room
Dean L.
good job, Stig
David B.
has entered the room
Bob F.
The FiOS guy never really leaves
Anders F.
Greetings from Sweden. The QT feed is live, so thanks Judy and all:)
David Y.
:-)
Bob F.
Alcatel is useful -- they buy up used phone companies like Lucent
Jen G.
has entered the room
Alex G.
internet rocks this year. thanks, mr. hendricks!
Alex G.
thanks atlantech!
Dean L.
is there an official hash tag for F2C? Perhaps #F2C09
Stig
jinx
David B.
has left the room
Mar 30
8:40 AM
Alex G.
stig asked same q choose one and it shall be so
Alex G.
#F2C09?
Bob F.
All these broad bands?
AKMA A.
#f2c09 check
Dean L.
I just tweeted it, so it may well now be official
Dean L.
#F2C09
Nick G.
has entered the room
Stig
Hejdå Anders!
Anders F.
Hejdå? HejjaPå!
David B.
video feed "live broadcast" paused
Garret S.
has entered the room
Marvin G.
has entered the room
Brett G.
has entered the room
Bob F.
Is anyone working to speed up existing infrastructure?
David B.
has left the room
David B.
has entered the room
Dana S.
has entered the room
Erik C.
has entered the room
David W.
has entered the room
Mar 30
8:45 AM
David W.
howdy
Brian K.
has entered the room
Erik C.
Dean, thanks for the hashtag.
Glenn S.
has entered the room
Brett G.
RTSP? Aargh.... Didn't particularly want to put RealPlayer on this new machine.... It spies and nags
Alex G.
Alex G.
hendricks
JoePlotkin
has entered the room
Judi C.
thanks Dean
Jim W.
has entered the room
Judi C.
Video stream does NOT work with Real Player
Judi C.
you need to use Quicktime
shep
has entered the room
Rafael D.
has entered the room
Judi C.
quicktime.apple.com
saschameinrath
has entered the room
David B.
am running quicktime, is any video currently being displayed?
Alex G.
[Judi's email address]
Alex G.
?
Jen G.
[Judi's email address] to get on here
Judi C.
Both Real Player and Quicktime use a version of rtsp
Judi C.
but they're different technologies
Judi C.
thanks
Anders F.
VLC media player works fine too..
Robb T.
has left the room
Philip R.
has entered the room
Claude A.
has entered the room
Brough T.
has entered the room
Doc S.
has entered the room
Mar 30
8:50 AM
Peter C.
has entered the room
Dick C.
has entered the room
isen
has entered the room
isen
Hello World
Bob F.
World Hello
David W.
Well, o, hurled
David B.
ifmmn xpsme
Jim B.
has entered the room
Britt B.
has left the room
Shawn W.
has left the room
Glenn S.
Burlington Telco is one of the best Telco's in the country - Socialist in nature
Bob F.
A telecom model is not the same as a connectrivity model
Mar 30
8:55 AM
Doc S.
http://www.burlingtontelecom.net/ . Not sure I'd call it a "telco," though.
isen
Actually Burlington Tel is independent from the city with its own profit/loss responsibility --very separate from the city budget
Ken D.
VLC is unable to open the MRL 'rtsp://odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp'. Check the log for details.
Ken D.
Ah well...
Doc S.
I'd call it a "netco" that's emulating a telco and a cableco while the demand for landline and "cable" TV lasts.
isen
Ken are you trying to access the video chat?
Bob F.
We seem to be confusing fiber and telcos with connectivity.
Ken D.
I am.
isen
OK we're working on it
Shmuel F.
has entered the room
Ken D.
Or, the video broadcast, if that is more correct.
Dean L.
one more in absentia hello to F2Cers comes from Howardgr
Ken D.
Thanks.
Ken D.
I was sure you'd ewant to know about the issue.
Doc S.
Montpelier is an old hotel and restaurant district with a state capital building in its midst.
Brett G.
Why the preoccupation with fiber to the home? Wireless is far more cost-effective and can deliver as much bandwidth as anyone needs, even with today's technology.
Dean L.
I just know there's a Barre-none pun coming
Michael W.
has entered the room
Bob F.
What is the economic model for roads?
Nick G.
has left the room
Doc S.
You here, Brett?
Dan A.
has entered the room
Ken D.
Wow, you can deliver 20Mbps to the home with wireless?
David B.
vlc appears to be working, at least the audio
Brian K.
No Quick time stream in Woods Hole
Michael W.
Well actually, its about 96%
Brett G.
I am "virtually" there. Physically, I am in Laramie, Wyoming, looking out the window at a snowstorm.
Erik C.
Bob, Roads are failed economic models; we need to do to roads what we did to telecom. ;-)
Ken D.
Or don't you believe in the latest speed ratings the Obama Administration is mandating for funding?
JoePlotkin
Brett some of us dont live in wyoming
isen
Brian we re working on it
Michael W.
Tim Nulty speaks truth
Brett G.
Developing countries are deploying neither copper nor fiber. They are going right to wireless.
Bob F.
Eric -- are you saying we should run tracks to every home so we can run it as a profit center?
Judi C.
Video stream is down momentarily. (Learning curve)
Doc S.
Do we need to replace the copper wire, or can we scaffold up from copper to fiber, and/or wireless?
Michael W.
except in Seattle of course, where its impossible, apparently
isen
Tim Nulty speaks experience
Ken D.
And they will remain behind the rest of the industrialized world.
Glenn S.
I did wireless roll-outs of broadband in Macedonia and Montenegro and designed one now for Albania
Alex G.
hi ken you're here virtually?
AKMA A.
(Brett, my friend Bruce Schmoetzer (based in MT) is here in Silver Spring, I was hoping to connect you two
Dana S.
Brett: they are building for today, not for tomorrow
Glenn S.
they are unable to do fiber
Michael W.
Broadband
Mar 30
9:00 AM
Dean L.
point of note:price per install to put fiber where copper exists?
Ken D.
Virtually.
Erik C.
A single fiber optic strand carries more capacity than all of spectrum.
Brett G.
Dana, wireless IS the technology of tomorrow.
Lynn H.
has entered the room
Michael W.
We Want Broadband was the grassroots effort that forced the city to do it in Amsterdam
Judi C.
Wireless doesn't work in hilly, mountainous areas like Mendocino Calif
Judi C.
Video is back
Brett G.
Video has not come back here.
Dana S.
Brett: no, its not. It might be *your* tomorrow, but for most people recognize that fiber is the real tech for tomorrow.
Brett G.
Wireless does work in hilly areas. I am doing it here in hilly and mountainous areas.
Brian K.
Why not go out on a limb... That's where the fruit is (Mark Twain)
Ken D. 
"point of note:price per install to put fiber where copper exists?"
Donny Smith (Jaguar Communications) has placed his number at $700/install (not including set top box)
Michael W.
The A'Dam effort was a response to grassroots advocacy from De Waag, De Society for Old and New Media, DDS, and XS4ALL
Bob F.
I find it strange that we are talking about the fiber rather than enabling connectivity. Saying copper can only run 14kbps is strange -- why not us modern technologies?
Doc S.
In most of Africa, only wireless is feasible. Or hybrid, with delivery entirely by wireless.
Erik C.
My only hope for any wireless is 802.11y; 24 watts matters; 0.5 watts sucks for outdoors
Geoff D.
has entered the room
Peter C.
has left the room
Doc S.
One urban wireless system: http://funkfeuer.at/
Michael W.
hey, that's hacker software!!!
Jen G.
David B.
hi dana, long time no speak
Michael W.
sorry, no flash in the US
Brett G.
Dana: Nice slogan, but not reality. In reality, everyone's cutting the cord and going wireless.
Geoff D.
wireless is great, but it's best used as an extension cord - you wouldn't power your house with it but it's essential when you don't have an outlet nearby
Dean L.
always comforting at a geektech gahering to see *others* with technical challenges :-)
Brett G.
Geoff, wireless is better than any kind of cord, because it can't be cut by a backhoe.
Frans-Anton
has entered the room
David W.
Do we need a fiber v. wireless panel/debate at f2c? Aim for a Rodney King moment?
Geoff D.
Brett - only because we don't have networked experiences that demand the capacity of fiber
Ken D.
I'm sure you have some stats to back that assertion up - what and considering that wireless is less than 1% of the US connectivity.
Bob F.
The problem is not wireless vs wired as such -- of course you need wireless to get to 99% of the world but the extension cord is a problematic model -- you want wireless to the nearest transit point not a single hop back home.
Brett G.
Wireless has capacity equal to that of fiber. (Remember, fiber is nothing but wireless in a tube.)
Dan G.
has entered the room
Geoff D.
Brett - you can't have robust wireless without robust wireline
Geoff D.
i want to see fiber everywhere and wireless everywhere
Ken D.
Wireless has a place - mobility.
Jen G.
I want WiFi on the bus and fiber at home.
Dana S.
David W: very funny! I think that would actually be a fun panel. As long as we had nerf bats!
Doc S.
Why not AND logic rather than OR? Copper AND fiber AND wireless. All work. All have sensible uses.
Bill S.
has entered the room
Ken D.
It is not a fixed solution as spectrum and technology exists today.
Jim Y.
has entered the room
Mar 30
9:05 AM
Bob F.
Yes -- wired/wireless bits are the same. I do want to understand what "open network" means.
Ken D.
Make that spectrum policy and technology...
Geoff D.
Doc - Yes!
Michael W.
We tried to bring this A'Dam model to Seattle but no traction
Sara W.
has entered the room
Bob F.
A'Dam ????
AKMA A.
Amster-
Jim Y.
i know too many who don't have ANY always-on access. it's crippling. why wait years for fiber if any other tech could get them online today?
Dan G.
Doc, if you can replace copper with fiber, good idea, no?
Nick G.
has entered the room
Dana S.
Agreed, Doc. We do need both, because they solve different problems: Speed vs. mobility.
Bob F.
What is the A'Dam model?
Brett G.
You absolutely can have robust wireless without robust wireline. Due to artificial government restrictions on spectrum, wireline is currently more viable for long haul communications (i.e. greater than 40 miles). However, wireless is more cost-effective at any shorter distance.
Dana S.
future vs. today
Brett G.
And it's better for fixed as well as mobile applications.
Dick C.
has left the room
Brett G.
We do exclusively fixed wireless broadband. Our customers love it.
Ram M.
wifi on buses available in india now. but wifi in villages - need electricity first...fiber an interesting choice but not enough penetration
Bob F.
No need to repalce copper with fiber until you run otu of copper capacity. We're not even using copper to more than 1% of its capacity
JoePlotkin
ok Brett, you're right.
JoePlotkin
Can we change the subject now?
Jim Y.
Copper was rolled out incrementally as the country grew. FTTH on the same timetable would be relatively easy.not a fair comparison
Andrew F.
has entered the room
Bob F.
If you have to put new stuff in fiber is nice -- and in many counties copper is too valuable and gets stolen
Rafael D.
has left the room
Andrew F.
Oh, Brett. How nice to see you.
Michael W.
The A'Dam model, using public ROW to lay fiber for residential, government, and commercial/industrial use. Offer it at near wholesale prices, as a non-profit enterprise, like garbage collection. It becomes, like Dirk said, a proof of concept that brings others into the market to compete
Doc S.
Dan, I don't think it's necessary to replace copper with fiber, as a blanket policy. I do think fiber is a Good Thing, though. We should deploy it everwhere we can, and it makes sense. Those last four words are what we debate, of course.
Andrew F.
(Brett is a frequent commenter on my articles. I <3 commenters. Really.)
Michael W.
In the US, cities
Michael W.
in the US cities coudl have done this with i-nets if they had the political will
Doc S.
What is the provenance of "A'Dam?"
Bob F.
For A'Dam -- we should really talk about the funding model and alternative. Given that connectivity is not aa consumable what are we charging for and do can we presume availability like we do the roads?
Erik C.
Bingo - how Frankstonian of these guys - excellent - connectivity as input not as "natural monopoly" service; thus "natural commons" instead of "natural monopoly"; it works; go figure - align public property w/ public infrastructure and all participants benefit.
Doc S.
He works on Coriscant!
Mar 30
9:10 AM
Michael W.
also ,Northwest Smug'
Benoit F.
has entered the room
Brett G.
Inspired by Philly's failed project
Bob F.
But free roads are not a sustainable model either
Erik C.
Did Seattle ever re-authorize Seattle Power & Light to provision connectivity?
Benoit F.
Ah, finally joined.
JoePlotkin
I like that phrase "natural commons"
David B.
out of failure comes ..... ?
Bob F.
Or "bit commons"
Michael W.
Sorry, Bill correction, it started in 1998 with a grassroots group called Electra
Brett G.
Free roads are sustainable because people are willing to be taxed to build them.
Sara W.
don't get me started on the topic of Philly's colossal bumble
Alex G.
! Doc S
Sara W.
sp?
Ken B.
has entered the room
Dirk
has entered the room
Bob F.
We've gone dark?
Andrew F.
lots of stuff happens in Philly.
Michael W.
The 2005 effortcame after Jim Compton was shamed by me, to do it
Brett G.
Free broadband is no more sustainable than free natural gas.
Erik C.
Thanks Joe - came up with that in a long discussion with Tim Cowen on Arch Econ b/c it goes to the root of the solution to what the 1934 Act has never solved.
Sara W.
Philly is entirely hopeless, and it's all about people. there is nothing about it of any technological significance. feudalism lives
isen
we still have our screens
Andrew F.
Have you ever gotten pushed into the Schukylll?
Michael W.
it was a effort to shut dwon and close off the grassroots advocacy from CPSR, Microsofties, Mike Apgar and many others
Sara W.
no, have you?
Brian K.
How much does it cost per mile or per house to install a fiber network in a medium density town of 30,000 people bkaminer@stonybeach.com
Dick C.
has entered the room
Doc S.
Dean L.
Philly hopelessness for the Wifi network is more about politics and corruption than anything else
Sara W.
(i doubt it because if you had, you would likely have corroded by now)
Michael W.
the chat room is down
Erik C.
Brian - I've seen per mile under $10k for hundreds of strands; all depends on layer 0 technology.
Andrew F.
the chat room is dead, long live the chat room!
Dean L.
down from the screen t AFI, but nor down and out!
Dirk
tomorrow Herman Wagter will go into costs
Bob F.
Beware bad analogies -- sports stadia are supposed self-funding!
Brett G.
All of those e-vile carriers! All broadband providers are obviously evil, you know.
Sara W.
@dean l. my sentiments exactly
AKMA A.
Key word: "supposed"
Michael W.
not is Seattle
Aymeril H.
has entered the room
Bob F.
@ doesn't work here like with tweets
Michael W.
He already thinks he is President
David S.
has entered the room
Sara W.
as noted, Florence circa ad 1400 was simpler and fairer, politically speaking
Andrew F.
what? this isn't twitter? we've been deceived!
Bob F.
This is frustrating -- the high order bit fo teh funding model is wrong and we've been silenced.
David W.
RT @Andrew F.: what? this isn't twitter? we've been deceived!
Paul H.
has entered the room
Mar 30
9:15 AM
Hilarie C.
has entered the room
Bob F.
Are we going to get the chat back?
Brett G.
Bob F: You're not the norm. You're a hacker. Most people don't want to roll their own; they want to buy reliable services and get on with their lives.
Dean L.
the chat remains, the screen is gone
Andrew F.
No,it's Brett versus the world.\
AKMA A.
Long live the chat!
Bob F.
What about a discussion about the funding model?
Sara W.
what gives?
Alex G.
the ether is invisible
Bob F.
I don't care wireless vs wired
David W.
Bob F. is the norm, only for the year 2235.
Sara W.
that's a good idea bob
Benoit F.
whether we like it or not, there is value for customers in packaging services...
Rafael D.
has entered the room
Bob F.
No it's - 1934 vs 2009
Dean L.
+1 Benoit
Kwerb
has entered the room
David W.
Bob F. :)
Lynn S.
has entered the room
Alex G.
incumbents want it to be about funding the poor -- in areas they already cover. competitors want to build new networks
David B.
agree with bob f., technology sounds good, until it has to scale and someone has to pay for it, then the perspective shifts greatly
Steve S.
isn't the answer ... "both!"
Dick C.
what is the video stream UL?
Bob F.
We have a funding model -- roads. Why do we choose railroads as the model?
Brett G.
Andrew: Not at all. My customers love me. The people who don't love me tend to be the people who are lobbyists, etc. rather than doers.
Alex G.
wireless not the same as mobile
Kwerb 
Morning, all.
Bob F.
Leak fiber is a good model for wirless
Hilarie C.
Incumbents want to defend their territory, not serve poor or rural.
Jim Y.
has left the room
Bob F.
Leaky fiber that is
Alex G.
cell phones are walled garden -- fixed wireless broadband is usually open
Dean L.
billable events, isn't that what the telecom incumbent model is all about (as opposed, say, to services or ease of use or customer service)
Brett G.
We do wireless backhaul to our hubs.
Alex G.
cell phones fail to offer freedom to connect
Bob F.
It's wired plus wireless nto wired vs wireless.
Ken B.
Dirk has is just right. Wireless and fiber coexist.
David S.
but with what capacity, and at what cost?
David Y.
Morning Kevin
shep
unfortunate that everyone's perception of what wireless is capable of is so heavily shaped by 802.11 and mobile phones.
Erik C.
So long as incumbents run game everyone is poor - it is based upon a scarcity model - the entire legal / regulatory structure reinforces this
Andrew F.
I don't not love you, I just wonder if you are tilting at windmills.
Ken B.
The more fiber one has the better the wireless will be.
David W.
Bob F, what do you mean by the "leaky fiber" idea?
Brett G.
We do have to do wired connections from there, but only because regulatory constraints make it difficult to do everything via wireless.
Erik C.
Why does everyone talk about cost of building new networks? What's the cost of NOT doing it?
Shawn W.
has entered the room
Benoit F.
Here I was thinking that all the "has entered the room" and "has left the room" messages were IRL messages based on us entering and leaving the theatre (RFID tags?) Doh!
Ken B.
Fiber will ALWAYS be faster than wireless ...
Bob F.
You really want fiber + copper + wireless + whatever -- they aren't competing -- they can all contribute. It's the funding model that makes the compete -- they all add to the bit commons.
David W.
Benoit, the "entered the room" comments actually track our attention.
Jean R.
has entered the room
Ken B.
But ... wireless is almost always more convenient, delivering service to where WE are as opposed to where it is convenient to terminate the fiber.
Mar 30
9:20 AM
AKMA A.
Bob F. : "It's the funding model that makes the compete" QFT
Dan A.
WIreless has it's applications but you need an fiber backhaul regardless. Also, wireless people like it better because the get to sell it again in 3 years, when technology changes.
Erik C.
95% of wireless rides landline; backhaul matters.
Brett G.
Ken: As I've said, fiber is nothing but wireless in a tube. The physics are identical. There is no reason for one to be faster than another.
Benoit F.
Glass transmits light faster than air, does it not? I'm not a physicist, but...
Michael W.
its not just about mesh and regulatory probs, it is also terrain features and a lot of other small things, added up
David S.
Ken B: convenience to access is great, but it comes at the expense of speed
Ken B.
And what technology to deploy is really an issue of what investment is available to deploy.
Doc S.
Am I a "subscriber" to water, electric or gas utilities? Just asking.
Dirk
on straN
tim
has entered the room
Stig
Leaky fiber? Do not look into fiber with remaining eye.
Erik C.
Doc, No, you are a "customer", but point well taken.
Michael W.
Well actually, microwave has been used for wireless backhaul for years
Ken B.
Brett: the big difference is that "air" has noise and obstructions that glass, usually, does not have.
Ken D.
Subscriber = customer then yes.
Bob F.
Subscribing to a consumable like water, elec etc makes senese. Subscribing to a nonconsumable like connectivity is problematic.
Dirk
has left the room
Sara W.
the notion that this is by necessity an either-or type of choice doesn't make sense.
Brett G.
Benoit: Actually, the velocity of light is slightly faster in air. But this isn't significant; it's throughput that matters, not the tiny difference in latency at the speed of light.
Ken B.
And the lack of noise and "obstructions" dramatically changes the quality and speed of the signal.
Andrew F.
(nice to see you here btw Doc...are you...here?)
Sara W.
unless one is making a decision re-what to add, rather than what to do with what one already has.
John S.
The issue with wireless isn't physics; it's that wireless is necessarily a shared resource relative to its wired connection point. So it's always slower.
Doc S.
I are here.
Doc S.
Front row, red shirt
Brett G.
Ken: Actually, as I've mentioned, wireless is more reliable because you cannot cut it with a backhoe.
Michael W.
'the velocity of light is faster'? RU kidding
Ken D.
Backhoe?
Sara W.
thank you Doc. i admire your existentialist stance
Ken D.
Try lightning.
Micah S.
has entered the room
Ken B.
We see this in the enterprise in which it is common to get 1Gbps on Ethernet, inexpensively, but even with 802.11n we will not see that speed for another 5 years or so.
Ken D.
Backhoes can be designed around.
MaryBeth H.
has entered the room
Michael W.
Back Ho!
David S.
I have 2 fiber strands into my house -- essentially double the wireless capacity
Bob F.
Wired plus wireless --
Brett G.
John S.: Wireless can be point-to-point or point-to-multipoint; shared or not.
David S.
That isn't possible with wireless
Micah S.
Hello, f2c!
JoePlotkin
killer app=this chat!!
Erik C.
Killer app? No, we need killer infrastructure.
Dean L.
Bob F gets VisiCalc props!
Stig
Does backhoe = Excavator in the UK?
Bob F.
NO NO NO NOT HDTV
isen
Bob F just got kudos -- visicalc!
Michael W.
the killer app is people!
JoePlotkin
peopel is the killer app
Andrew F.
ahoy, Micah.
Ken B.
Brett: almost any client can be a jammer in wireless AND almost all wireless needs wired backhaul to be effective.
Doc S.
All hail Visicalc!
Brett G.
David S.: Just use two channels.
Sara W.
++eric
Alex G.
and HD Voice
Dan G.
Off topic: There should be a penalty for computer noise in a conference venue... like the Mac bong startup, or the Skype message-received noise, etc.
Sara W.
oops i meant erik
Ken B.
Rah VisiCalc!
JoePlotkin
teleconference is participatory
Glenn S.
All hail dBase II
Andrew F.
grandchildren?!?!?!
Dana S.
yes, symmetrical HD video is a killer app
David S.
I can do that twice over with the fiber at my home
Bob F.
This is backwards -- we're trying to justify high-speed. It's the low speed apps that gave us the network.
Andrew F.
don't frighten me!
David W.
Won't someone please think about the grandchildren!
shep
HDTV with what sort of coding delay?
Dean L.
Visicalc truly excels (groan)
Erik C.
Sara, I'm flattered being confused w/ Doc.
Anders F.
Grandchildren are killer.. apps?
Erik C.
Until we have Amsterdam-like infrastructure, killer apps are "products".\
David W.
Attack of the Killer Apps.
JoePlotkin
we need to stop using "video" to denote 1-way
isen
but via youtube too, no -- does the video really need to b e very HQ??
Doc S.
All due props to BobF and DanB (the Visicalcians), the killer app for the PC was everything. There was no "triple play" for the PC.
Bob F.
MAD Magazine researched hte picture phone 40 yars ago and showed it actually made communicating more difficult.
Ken B.
Actually ... we can get symmetric high speed with wireless ..
David W.
Isn't _everything_ the killer app?
Andrew F.
that would require I have children first. Which to date I hopefully do not.
Ken B.
When deployed correctly.
Brett G.
Ken B.: A cable cutter can be a jammer for fiber. A permanent one. ;-)
Herman W.
has entered the room
Ken B.
With lots of fiber backhaul.
Dean L.
Bob F: What, me worry?
AKMA A.
Bob F. -- I remember that issue of MAD!
Sara W.
please, don't suggest anything about grandchildren. a) i'm too young; b) i have 18 year old daughter. you're scaring me!
Dana S.
shep: encoding delay should be no worse than current skype/iChat
Brett G.
Also, our wireless is symmetrical; the speaker is incorrect
Mar 30
9:25 AM
David Y.
Doc, agree - killer app for broadband is also 'everything'
JoePlotkin
Mad magazine??
Andrew F.
an HD version of the tape from The Ring -- "The Killer App"
Bob F.
We can do video calls now and we just dont' do it! We tweet instead! That is very interesting.
Doc S.
What's the "killer app" for the iPhone? It's not telephony.
Benoit F.
What's a killer app' ? One that brings users or one that brings money? Depending on who you ask, you get different answers...
Glenn S.
Macedonia looks even more like Vermont
Hilarie C.
televideo in support of rural health care can keep seniors in their home longer
Sara W.
??joe, what are you talking about?
Ken B.
To do symmetric wireless however requires high access point density on a fiber backbone.
David W.
The App Store is the killer app for the iPhone
Bob F.
This is why we should first light up what we have becauase we cnnot anticipate the next Web.
David B.
bob f... all about the path of least resistance
Brett G.
We can do 1.25 Gbps wireless with off-the-shelf equipment NOW
Bob F.
The killer app is not having to have an app
David Y.
iPhone (iTouch) killer app => everything
Alex G.
Glenn S. -- you had the _national government_ on your side in Macedonia
Dean L.
Interesting that Timcompares VT topology to Poland -- Poland a leader in net connectivity and a right of connectivity as entitlement
Dana S.
Bob F: not true. I do video calls right now. Its only when we can't easily do video chat due to technology limits that we don't do it.
Doc S.
It's the fact that it's a data device that does lots of stuff besides telephony, and the user isn't locked into what only the carrier lets them use. (Ignoring that it's what only Apple lets you use, but never mind that.)
Benoit F.
FWIW I agree that home HD video telephony will drive adoption in a huge way. But telcos don't see a lot of money in there (stupidly IMO).
Michael W.
THE KILLER APP IS PEOPLE!!!! NOT MORE INCUMBENTS, NOT MORE CORPORATE DOMINATION, NOT MORE HEDGEMONY
JoePlotkin
Mad magazine is now an authority?
Ken B.
Brett ... ?? 1.25 Gbps?
Bob F.
new fiber is cheaper than new copper.
Ken B.
Off the shelf?
Bob F.
Killer app is a funding model which doesn't require justifying the value of each app
Brett G.
Our company started as a community network; a co-op. The members asked me to take it private.
Andrew F.
The killer app is Soylent 2.0
Alex G.
Dilbert is my authority. and http://www.userfriendly.org
Herman W.
Communication is king: content is something to communicate about. Communication needs excellent latency, excellent latency needs bandwidth symmetrical.
Dana S.
Brett: Sure, if you use lasers
shep
69 million dollars for how many people ?
Ken B.
Color me skeptical ... love to see the product spec.
David B.
dana, you might do video calls, so do i, lots of folks do not want to be bothered - SEESMIC is a "fail" example
Ken D.
YEs, E-Band technology hits those speeds with a promise of double that this year.
Doc S.
What about those three guys to the right of Tim on stage?
Sara W.
++andrew
Brett G.
Yes, Ken: 1.25 Gbps. Look at the sites of Ceragon and Bridgewave, to name two.
Andrew F.
(seesmic? fail? zut alors, don't tell loic!)
Sara W.
my authority is lester from the wires
Ken B.
Point to point and impractical at scale.
Hilarie C.
killer app for rural electrification was the milking machine. What makes that same kind of difference for fiber?
Sara W.
wire
Bob F.
Why can't people add their own wireless cloud by jsut adding access points?
Sara W.
lester freamon
Brett G.
And that 1.25 Gbps is actually with relatively inefficient modulation schemes.
Sara W.
ya feel me?
Dana S.
David: its just a matter of time. Video calls need to be as easy as dialing a phone.
tim
did you fund the $69m? Yes or no?
Doc S.
We used to have railroad to the farm. Would have been nice to have kept the old rights of way.
Sara W.
video calls require a willingness to look like crap in public
Bob F.
This is why we need a model that lets everyone to add wireless coverage incrementallhy.
Erik C.
Every major network rides RR or oil ROW.
Brett G.
You can't get universality with fiber, either, without drilling through rock, etc.
Bob F.
Technology pricing is not gbased on current costs. It's based on the "MOore's law" economics. What people cna do incremntally wins.
David B.
Dana: share the access/deja vu :)
Erik C.
Brett - just drop fiber in Hwy ROW.
Ken D.
Stig
facepalm
Ken D.
Among others
JoePlotkin
++ Tim Nulty!
roy l.
has entered the room
Brett G.
The speaker is making an economic claim without justification. We get as much for wireless service as the telco gets for DSL.
Dana S.
yes Tim!
Doc S.
Tim's not saying fiber to everywhere. He's saying fiber to where the copper already goes.
Bob F.
Again -- this is why leaky fiber works well -- just add lots of local access points.
Ken B.
Gigabeam is a PTP wire replacement - not a network.
Dana S.
Brett, that's not what he's saying
Bob F.
Also this competing with kids is a bogus m,odel that persumes scarce capacity.
Andrew F.
so...kill the kids?
Brett G.
Again, the speaker is making claims that are simply not technically correct
Andrew F.
(making it impossible that grandchildren would be the killer app)
John S.
Tim Nulty is EXACTLY right
JoePlotkin
Tim is exactly right
Bob F.
ARPU -- that sounds like an telco model not connectivity model.
Ken D.
That's where the 1.25 Gbps number came from, I believe
Mar 30
9:30 AM
Britt B.
has entered the room
tim
yes but did you get the $69m??~~
Marvin G.
has left the room
Ken D.
Far be it for me to speak for Brett Glass.
Alex G.
many WISPs rely on fiber, esp. in WA state
Brett G.
We're building wireless first, and we are growing like gangbusters.
Bob F.
So -- can we talk about alternative funding models?
Erik C.
++ Tim Nulty - AGREED; exactly!
Bill S.
What kills the business case for wireless is the cost of roof rights. Unfortunately no ROW with roofs
David B.
Houston, we have lost audio/video contact
Jim Y.
has entered the room
Alex G.
one WISP in CA got roof rights from investor Kaiser Permanente
Brett G.
Roof rights cost a lot less than right of way and digging.
Ken B.
I agree with TIm McNulty ... well said. WIreless is a lovely extension to a strong wired backbone.
Erik C.
Bill S. - wrote a primer on building access from my days at Teligent and w/ various fixed wireless providers - will send you a link if you like erik@erikcecil.com
Andrew F.
come on...is there a commissioner lurking? come on...
Doc S.
improvised microphony
Benoit F.
Oooh, Bob is decidedly coming up to the microphone.
Doc S.
Can we have fiber to the microphones?
shep
Tim Nulty is correct about wireless done with currently deployed wireless technology. But what is physically possible with wireless is actually much more.
Brett G.
Which Bob?
Lyle M.
has entered the room
Benoit F.
F.
catherine
has entered the room
Ken B.
For some applications - where mobility or where a wire CANNOT be run - wireless can be the foundation technology. But in almost every other case wired is the foundation for wireless.
David S.
This continues as a technology debate, but it should be an economic debate about how to stop the US from continuing to fall behind the rest of the world in informational economy
Michael W.
YOUNGER THAN TIM?
Ken B.
Hmmmmm ... analog queing for the microphone
Micah S.
David S ++
Andrew F.
I am feeling so young right now. Scary.
Michael W.
the pencil sharp? Tim, what do you say to that!
Ken B.
David - I agree ... but to have the financial discussion - we need to agree on a technology view to focus our investment.
Brett G.
Wired is only the foundation for wireless due to regulation. Were even a small portion of the unused spectrum put into use, wireless could do it all.
Andrew F.
Micah Sifry: yes, that's the big picture -- but problem is need to get people talking about the demand-side of broadband and quit the infighting on muni vs ilec, etcetc etc
David Y.
Chris Savage is in the house
Peter C.
has entered the room
Michael W.
Don't co-opt them, own them. You will NEVER get an incumbent to work with you, that is not their biz model
Shana G.
has entered the room
David S.
Ken B - you're right, however, wireless and wireline are not mutually exclusive. Instead, they each have a role.
Michael W.
You must be the landlord, not the tenant
Ken B.
I would argue that we need investment in a foundation of fiber backbone that can be selectively extended via fiber, copper or wireless to the end customer.
Andrew F.
(sees Peter and Shana, starts jumping up and down)
Ken B.
David - I agree they are synergistic
Mar 30
9:35 AM
Michael W.
It is silly to try and get incumbents to change their biz model. They would rather die first, and some have. That's why the KPN ad Dirk showed is so unusual
David S.
The US has argued the technology debate for many years, it's time to shift the focus to the needed outcome which, in my view, is advancing our downtrodden economy.
Harold F.
has entered the room
Brett G.
In other words, municipalities have an unfair advantage over the private sector. How is it beneficial for government to compete unfairly with private enterprise?
dwitzel
has entered the room
Harold F.
Because it gets service to those who need it.
Rafael D.
has left the room
Harold F.
It's called a "safety net."
AKMA A.
Not even so much that "both wired and wireless have a role" -- both constitute vast improvement on status quo, whichever can get done needs to be done
Ken D.
Ken B: I would like to see a business plan, including a full technology map, prepared, reviewed, accepted and then acted on. Let's do this once, correctly and get it done.
Ken B.
Because private enterprise is not doing it.
Michael W.
Bill will go to his grave trying to get Qwest or Verizon to 'partner' and change their model. The idea just doesn't make sense
David S.
How is it beneficial to compete to our detriment with other countries that are funding network deployment directly at the federal level?
Brett G.
My private enterprise IS doing it.
Alex G.
here's how to build fiber
Alex G.
Ken B.
Ken - rah! Virttual breakout room?
Benoit F.
Brett G., how is it competing with private sector if private sector is not willing to go into that market?
Michael W.
Thank you Tim. This is a major part of the point.
Ken D.
Because private enterprise didn't get the job done, not in the past and certainly not moving forward.
Brett G.
Not only are we willing; we are growing as fast as we can.
Tom G.
has entered the room
Ken D.
Funding has to come from somewhere and Municiplaities have the ability to generate funds.
Brett G.
And we would grow faster, were it not that investors are being deterred by the threat of government meddling.
David S.
But only wireless?
Erik C.
Prof. Tim Brown at Univ. Colorado, prof. EE studied spectrum usage & found that 90-95% unused for a month at a time.
Michael W.
Under contract as an independent operator is very different from being an equity partner
Brett G.
In particular, the threats of municipal competition and regulation of the Internet are scaring away capital.
Jim R.
has entered the room
Ken D.
That said, most Munis don't want to run their networks, they want private enterprise to come in and do the day to day operations.
Shawn W.
has left the room
Glenn S.
Alex Goldman - Ken D. said I should say hello to you today if you have time.
David S.
Municipalities started into the business because private companies would not
matt b.
has entered the room
Ken B.
Most muni's are already running an extensive fiber network .. just suboptimally.
Brett G.
We are engineers. We do what works. We would do fiber if we saw that it was cost-effective in a particular instance. As it happens, we are doing wireless because it's by far the most cost-effective solution.
Judi C. 
Video Stream: rtsp://odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp
Please use Quicktime from Apple,  NOT Real Player.
Ken D.
Obviously that was because investors weren't being scared away or something.
Alex G.
hi Glenn we did speak in the past but always good to say hi again
Benoit F.
Furthermore, municipalities want services delivered to citizens that telcos are not willing to deliver...
Alex G.
Michael W.
Listen to Dirk
Michael W.
In A'Dam, they understand it better than anyone else and have been doing it longer
Sara W.
he speaks truth
David S.
Brett G - the most cost effective solution to what problem? And at what speeds to the average consumer?
Mar 30
9:40 AM
Brett G.
By the way, my company is not alone.... We have more than 4,000 wireless colleagues, covering an estimated 3 million square miles.
Ken D.
Judy, I wish I could - the video seems to be unavailable from here.
Steve S.
he has to say that because he sees bob f in line :)
Doc S.
ArbiBastard. Is that domain taken?
Michael W.
as opposed to a non-arbotrary bastard
Jim Y.
Does Tim N's argument make sense when muni's are subcontracting out many former govt activities to make easy profits - example: traffic cameras, causing ticket rates and costs to community to skyrocket
Michael W.
testimony
Brett G.
Speed isn't the issue; it's cost. We can do 54 Mbps of raw speed. However, users can't afford that much backbone bandwidth because it costs $100 per Mbps in our area.
Chris S.
has entered the room
Lyle M.
I'd like to see the internet like a public library without the fines for not returning books. How we get there?
Michael W.
Mark Cooper submited testimony going back to 98 to try and get Seattle to implment a fiber netwrok
Brett G.
So, the equipment is already way ahead of what users can buy.
Sara W.
good question doc, but arbybastard would surely get you sued
Micah S.
"The killer app is connectivity," Mark Cooper of CFA.
David S.
Yet at my home I have 50 mbps symmetrical for $50/month . . . over fiber
Doc S.
Who is talking, and who are "we"? Forgive me for being dumb and asking.
Brett G.
Satellite is a better technology for delivery of HDTV.
Michael W.
long before Jim Compton (who resigned in disgrace) got the idea
Doc S.
I get 20Mb symmetrical for $64/mo.
Jim Y.
Mobile first mile -- YES
Kwerb
has left the room
David Y.
Satellite is no good for 2-way HDTV conferencing
Ken B.
Mobile first mile. Yup.
Joshua B.
has entered the room
Ken D.
I get 8 down and 512 up on a good day with the wind at my back - for $62/month
Glenn S.
Ken D. You in the cyber-audience?
Bill S.
The killer app is dematerialization - http://www.seyboldreport.com/ready-or-not-…
Ken B.
Fiber infrastructure to feed.
Michael W.
And as Compton learned, Bill, bless his heart, had been secretly building the fiber network for years, all the while denying it to the public and the press
Ken D.
I am
Brett G.
If we had bandwidth costs that low, we'd deliver what the consumers needed. Wireless technology is up to it.
Ken D.
Glenn.
David Y.
20Mbps symmetrical is very good - yea FiOS!
Michael W.
Bill Schrier is a true hero
Jim Y.
Internet "in the air" where people are means everyone can just connect Right Now.
Herman W.
fiber versus wireless is a false dichotomy, they are symbiotic
Dana S.
Mark's point - There are multiple problems: for where connectivity exists, build fiber. Where no connectivity, or limited connectivity, build wireless to bring people up to today's standard, using the best technology available.
David W.
Future proof because will always want mobility, but the wireless infrastructure isn't future proof, is it? Am I missing Mark's point?
Judi C.
Ken D, please send me an email
Alex G.
glenn had the natl govt on his side in the balkans
Ken B.
Actually .. with deployment of 802.11n - 10-20 Mbps symmetric wireless for first mile is entirely realistic.
Michael W.
If the city knew Bill was buidling a network, they would have shut it down
Chris S.
Hey, for profit entities can be "good guys" too -- you just need to constrain the profit motive properly
Alex G.
wireless future proof yes, but frequent upgrade costs
Steve S.
good guys != for profit entities ?
Jim Y.
s/mobile/available
Micah S.
John S.
And the question is?
Brett G.
So, anyone who is "for profit" is evil?
Geoff D.
has left the room
Michael W.
Your question, plz?
Brett G.
Gee. I guess I don't deserve to put food on the table or meet payrool.
Brett G.
(Oops, payroll.)
Jean R.
Vermont is the home of the new LC3 - low profit for social benefit (mingling of 501(c)3 and LLC
James C.
has entered the room
Ken D.
Judi: Done
Doc S.
Thanks, David(s), Micah.
Mar 30
9:45 AM
Ron C.
has entered the room
Chris S.
Nobody's clean. For profits want to make profit, which is not always done by serving the public good (Adam Smith notwithstanding). Municipal entities are not always public-spirited either.
Harold F.
For profit are neither good guys or bad guys. They are part of the ecology like everyone else. This is an economic issue, not a morality play.
Dean L.
This is a multiDavid environment
Brett G.
Killing for-profit companies that create good jobs is NOT pro-consumer.
Brett G.
It's a multiGoliath environment too. ;-)
Chris S.
Harold, without morality this gets much less exciting... <g>
Jim Y.
Tim N's environment is atypical except for his own state and region. he also quoted costs for reaching only 65%. cherry picking the easy cases is not fair.
Harold F.
Chris, Adam Smith knew the score. He just thought government was worse, which given when he lived and the impacts of merchantilism was not an irrational conclusion.
Ken B.
So Tim ... what DOES it cost per sub for fiber?
Chris S.
Harold, I know. Stay tuned for my talk this afternoon.
tim
Tim N - your way off track
Harold F.
New England rural is not the same as Southwest rural.
Brett G.
Patently false.
Andrew F.
So physical infrastructure == ownership == maintenence == effort?
Brett G.
Wireless works. Why is Tim so prejudiced against it?
Andrew F.
therefore subscribers therefore pays?
Alex G.
yes tim we'd love $ / cust numbers
Erik C.
For profit is not the issue. Who profits is. Current system profits are harvested and extracted. Enabling architectures that are open - connectivity utilities - profit everyone. You cannot serve public interest by putting private entity in control of public right of way. Confuses property rights. Natural monopoly is the illusion; natural commons is the reality. Thus, Tim Nulty!
Deb C.
anybody blogging this? link?
David S.
See Powell, Wyoming, where a fiber network now exists -- extremely rural
Dean L.
Deb C: much tweeeting going on
Brett G.
We, as wireless providers, can REACH those remote people. Fiber simply isn't economical for that.
Micah S.
Tim Nulty, nice analogy between rural broadband and rural education: we don't tell school kids they live too far away from the bus route to get taken to school. I'm saving that one.
David W.
I'm doing some truly AWFUL live-blogging. Irresponsibly bad. (Not posted yet.) http://www.johotheblog.com.
Dean L.
Jim Y.
I helped connect 500sq miles for under $2million in 24 months. granted the users had to settle for less than HD. but they could all be connected.
Geoff D.
has entered the room
JoePlotkin
Peter Capek: C. - dead on
Brett G.
Powell's network only covers a very small downtown area. It doesn't reach out of town.
Ken B.
Tim's architecture is flawed for wireless.
Geoff D.
Brett - Tim isn't anti-wireless; he's anti a wireless-only approach
JoePlotkin
that should have been ErikC
Andrew F.
so issue w/ wireless is twice the buildout?
David S.
In Powell, a public/private partnership is working, the two sides aren't at diametrically opposed odds
Chris S.
But we absolutely do have geographic districts for things like ambulance, fire coverage, etc. If you are too far out, you don't get service
Hilarie C.
wireless doesn't wor in rural coastal CA Bad terrain, Tall redwoods.
Ken D.
Northern Minnesota fiber network - and it works.
Ken D.
Erik C.
Brett, talk to Chris Savage about cost of fiber; when he, Dale Hatfield and I presented to Wyoming Comm'n Conference, Chris showed buildout to the state on very low cost.
Dana S.
Yay Lev!
Brett G.
What's more, Powell awarded a monopoly on providing service over that fiber to a single provider. They would not let us in!
Vanessa
has entered the room
Alex G.
yup that's quite a twitter stream. I participate as ISP-Planet
Dan A.
How many times have we changed wireless technologies in the past 5 years? How many times have we changed fiber? The fiber is a pipe that will remain technology neutral...
David S.
Powell's network hits 95% of all homes and businesses within City geographical limits
Jim Y.
FTTR - fiber to the redwoods, then wifi from there
Harold F.
I'm haroldfeld
matt b.
Which is a better channel for us virtual people? Twitter or Campfire?
Harold F.
on twitter
Ken B.
Yup. Pragmatism must rule.
Dick C.
Don't you mean, "..responsibly bad..", David W.?
John S.
As far as I can tell there is only one person recommending a single "superior" technology.
shep
the post office provides connectivity.
Paul W.
has entered the room
Stig
Campfire has the advantage of being visible to the participants in real time.
Mar 30
9:50 AM
JoePlotkin
Bob's head is about to explode
Mar 30
9:50 AM
Andrew F.
connectivity means those guys getting a microphone over there
catherine
has left the room
Brett G.
I know all about Jaguar Communications. They also do a great deal of wireless!
Jim Y.
Tim's "Everybody" excludes a lot of people in this country.
Harold F.
David, pull us back!
Geoff D.
good point, Dan A. - there's too much uncertainty in wireless technologies today
Harold F.
Thank you!
Glenn S.
Everyone does not have a broadband connection which is now the digital divide
Alex G.
joe I like Bob's hand gestures
Michael W.
Thank you. And this is the lesson we learned in A'Dam; it is about all the applications, We WANT BRoadband,,, do it all, try everything, use the municipality as a lab
Geoff D.
Jaguar Communications rocks! Donny Smith's a P-I-M-P
Herman W.
there is a nice paper by nico baken on the symbiotic relationship between fiber and wireless
Dean L.
4 Questions...no, that's next week
fpaynter
has entered the room
Michael W.
Bill, I kiss you!
AKMA A.
David Isen ++
Brett G.
Again, I am an engineer. I deploy what works.
fpaynter
hello
shep
that would count as a "rough consensus"
Dean L.
fpaynter joins us!
Ken B.
Yup. Fiber + wireless.
Ken B.
Now .. let's get concrete.
Andrew F.
Fireless!
AKMA A.
Alas, "fired"
Harold F.
Cell phone has a DNA problem. Remaking network not easy.
Steve S.
so many other things to discuss (and we'll get there): a) long haul interconnectivity, packet prioritization, global net censorship, lawful intercept, content issues, innovations in applications, etc.
Brett G.
Again, fiber is only necessary as a foundation for wireless due to wireless regulation.
Ken B.
Oh no ... mesh does not scale.
JoePlotkin
Wiber?
Andrew F.
mesh battery nightmare
Michael W.
Agreed, but let's get beyond this
Jim Y.
wifiber
Harold F.
Whatever works.
Brett G.
Wireless mesh architectures can be proven to be infeasible.
Ken B.
Sigh. To make wireless work well ... we need lots of wire.
Alex G.
government hates mesh because mesh makes wiretaps difficult
matt b.
They f2c site reads, "Details on how to connect to the video stream will appear here at about 8:00 AM Monday 3/30."
Brett G.
We have worked with everything out there and even tried to design something better.
David W.
Ken B: I thought Vienna was scaling mesh successfully. No?
Andrew F.
vienna scales chocolate pretty well
Harold F.
Government doesn't hate mesh, they just don't get it.
Dean L.
matt b: [link removed]
Jim Y.
i don't think we're talking about big meshes, just pragmatic ones
Brett G.
We then went back to the theory and proved beyond question that mesh doesn't work.
Paul W.
need revenue to have a sustainable biz plan.. we don't need gvmnt to have to continue to fund a network forever.. fiber wins this debate.. both technologies compliment.
Michael W.
yet.....
Ken B.
Now .. all networks are "mesh" .. however, broadcast multi-hop mesh just does not scale ... but routed, directed "mesh" has much higher capacity.
Dana S.
Wireless Mesh works, and has been proved to work. It doesn't have the same characteristics of a hub-and-spoke.
Hilarie C.
How do you defend wireless to the rural residents afraid we're "killing their children" Studies we can quote?
Ken B.
But this is a detail at the edges.
Brett G.
Mesh doesn't work for any value of "work" that consumers care about.
saschameinrath
For those who think mesh doesn't scale -- here's a live view of the Vienna, Austria metro-scale mesh: https://map.funkfeuer.at/experimental -- all open source, and free to all participants.
Chris S.
Sascha, how is it paid. BobF has a point: issue isn't technology, it's funding model
Mar 30
9:55 AM
Andrew F.
oooh, so use the copper to deliver wireless?
Ken B.
Mesh scaling .... (.5)^n is the bandwidth reduction for n hops.
Dean L.
matt b: rtsp://odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp
Herman W.
Michael W.
agreed S, and in Leiden, and San Fran, and other places. But I think we are missing the point
Brett G.
If it's free, it's neither sustainable nor technologically feasible.
Michael W.
Listen to Dirk
Sara W.
http://twitter.com/f2c = converting from farenheit to celsius (an analogy?)
Brett G.
Copper, like fiber, is "wireless in a tube." It's just a different kind of tube.
Ken B.
The Rolling Stones model of funding.
Glenn S.
Ken B.
Gotta love it.
Steve S.
yay to our moderator, keep it moving
Michael W.
option value... excellent, the value is inthe options, choices
Bob F.
It's hard to ask a real qeustion from the audience
Andrew F.
hmm. i want a wireless SUV.
Bob F.
THe problem is in assuming "a network" that's like requriring railroads to travel
Andrew F.
(misses ted stevens already :-( )
saschameinrath
here's the Guifi.net mesh wireless network (several thousand nodes spanning a whole region of the country): http://www.guifi.net/en/node/3671/view/map
Bob F.
We need a model which is more basic that allows us to do our own netorking without having to pay a provider.
Michael W.
Dirk has provided for you a way out of the thicket... that the choices ARE the answer
Paul W.
assuming cooper can support xdsl.. much of rural fiber is damaged.. water & copper = don't work..
Jean R.
Andrew F - have you seen the wireless electricity coming out. :)
Brett G.
The Internet is not a "public way" and was explicitly designed not to be. It was designed to be a federation of PRIVATELY owned networks, each with different ownership, rules, etc.
Dana S.
http://www.awmn.net/ - one of the most impressive and fully functional networks
Bob F.
I still don't understand how Dirk's model gives me the ability to communicate if I find myself in the middle of A'Dam.
Andrew F.
Jean Russell: R I saw "The Prestige" a few times. David Bowie made a great Tesla. Does that count?
Ken D. 
Hilarie C: http://wireless.ewashtenaw.org/safety_security/health
http://www.osha.gov/dts/hib/hib_data/hib19900207.html
http://www.aehf.com/articles/em_sensitive.html
http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/news/article.php/3653711
Steve S.
brett that's a good topic for us to discuss at some point here
saschameinrath
i can keep providing examples -- but hopefully these illustrate that scalable mesh does work and is a reality today.
Brett G.
No mesh can offer adequate performance. Simple math.
Sara W.
did he just say something implying that high speed connectivity was all about renting movies online?
Sara W.
if yes, i find that mortifying
Michael W.
ALL of Seattle is underserved. There is no service above 1.5 residential in the entire city
Brett G.
Renting movies online is certainly what it's about for a lot of people.
AKMA A.
Nothing wrong with priesthood
Dana S.
Hilarie C.
How can rural cooperatives afford maintenance on aerial fiber? We have trouble keeping power lines up all winter.
Dana S. 
Structure and Evolution of a Large-Scale Wireless Community Network 
(Structure and Evolution of a Large-Scale Wireless Community Network)
Geoff D.
wow - amazing how far behind the curve some of our cities are, even those considered to be tech hubs!
Sara W.
all of philly is, i imagine, even worse (not knowing seattle that well)
Ken B.
Sascha - let's go measure one like I have measured most of the US wireless networks ... conventional mesh does NOT scale.
Bob F.
We've had no improvements in DSL for 20 years -- isn't hat suspicious?
Brett G.
People are dumping their cable connections and streaming video over our network; we see the impact on bandwidth at "prime time"
saschameinrath
Ken -- what do you define as "scale"?
Dick C.
has left the room
Ken B.
High performance to lots of people.
Bob F.
Yes -- fiber is wonderful. but why wait for it?
Mar 30
10:00 AM
Brett G.
Bob F: Where have you been? U-Verse is DSL on steroids.
David W.
"Glass doesn't corrode" - Brett's new personal tagline?
Dan A.
Do it once and do it right?
Andrew F.
oh snap
Brett G.
Wireless is also carrying more and more as technology improves.
Glenn S.
Joanne Hovis doing a GREAT Job with the panel
AKMA A.
"Wireless doesn't corrode either"?
Andrew F.
but he shouldn't throw stones.
Steve S.
or backhoes
Andrew F.
ok laptop shutting. come say hello during the break!
Sara W.
they have free wireless internet access in the canadian rockies, but not on a random street corner in downtown philly---unless you're willing to pay something along the lines of $3.95 for a 1-hour connections
David W.
joanne +1
Brett G.
David W: I hope it doesn't. I seem to be the target of some acidic comments at times.
Harold F.
Agree that Joanne is AWESOME!
Geoff D.
I ♥ Joanne Hovis
Bob F.
Private vs public is a false dichotomy. Today's so-called private companies are creations of the government.
Brett G.
They haven't seen our private sector efforts. No municipal network can beat us.
Bob F.
A phone compnay would not exist were it not for the government giving infrastructure providers a role as gatekeeper
Harold F.
There is a difference between assuring a minimum level of connectivity for everyone and what the private sector does.
David S.
It's not about wireless vs wireline or private vs public networks -- it's about US communities vs those in Amsterdam, Malaysia, China, Korea, Japan, etc., etc.
Bob F.
Screen saver for teh hecklebot!!?!
saschameinrath
Ken -- here's a link to the Djursland Wireless network -- it covers 3000 square kilometers and 6000 households.
Bob F.
The problem is the very concept we must have network service provdiers rather than recongizing networking is an activity.
Harold F.
Munibroadband is the public transportation system. It doesn't compete with car lots or taxi cabs.
saschameinrath
MaryBeth H.
++open access
Bob F.
We shoudl have health care doing networking now intsead of waiting for magic.
Brett G.
Bob F: That's historically incorrect. In fact, the telcos were given a monopoly AFTER they had already started.
Harold F.
Bob F: First we need to get doctors to adopt.
Alex G.
"Many large ISPs (the phone and cable companies) got to be that way not through entrepreneurial excellence or good customer service or the deployment of the most advanced technologies," he told InternetNews.com. "They got to be that way because they inherited an asset that was built 30 years ago in the case of cable and 100 years ago in the case of the phone companies." http://www.internetnews.com/government/art…
Benoit F.
Illustration of Tim's point on public services and school buses: http://tinyurl.com/cd6jyb
Michael W.
Bill, plz... you are NOT a muni lawyer. I am
Chris S.
Harold, public transport does compete with private. Not necessarily bad, but it is a fact.
saschameinrath
i agree that wireless doesn't have the capacity of fiber, but it's far more cost-effective in some conditions and locales.
Shana G.
has left the room
Brett G.
There are some serious problems with universal electronic medical records. In particular, under our current insurance system they make it possible for insurers to claim that nearly any condition is "pre-existing."
Sara W.
sascha, are you (physically) here today? i need to ask you a question
David W.
sex?
David W.
oh, music.
Chris S.
Sascha, e.g., here. Should we all have fiber plugs here at each seat?
Sara W.
why not? (i'll come find you during the break)
Mar 30
10:05 AM
Brett G.
Alex, the phone companies have actually done a great job of repurposing that old infrastructure. DSL is quite a hack.
saschameinrath
sara, yes i'm here -- down in front at the moment.
Dan G.
has left the room
Brett G.
(Leaves the console to brew a pot of coffee)
Jim Y.
has left the room
Doc S.
holy shit these guys are fucking amazing.
Mar 30
10:10 AM
Don J.
has left the room
Doc S.
Kevin D.
has entered the room
Shmuel F.
has left the room
Andrew F.
has left the room
Mar 30
10:15 AM
Vanessa
has left the room
AKMA A.
has left the room
Tony A.
has left the room
Bob F.
has left the room
Jen G.
has left the room
Dana S.
has left the room
Michael W.
has left the room
Dan A.
has left the room
Lynn H.
has left the room
Bill S.
has left the room
Sara W.
has left the room
Nick G.
has left the room
David S.
has left the room
tim
has left the room
MaryBeth H.
has left the room
roy l.
has left the room
Britt B.
has left the room
Chris S.
has left the room
Geoff D.
has left the room
Rafael D.
has entered the room
Steve S.
has left the room
shep
has left the room
Frans-Anton
has left the room
Benoit F.
has left the room
Lynn S.
has left the room
Harold F.
has left the room
Ron C.
has left the room
roy l.
has entered the room
Mar 30
10:20 AM
Brough T.
has left the room
Paul H.
has left the room
Garret S.
has left the room
Ken B.
has left the room
Mar 30
10:25 AM
Heath R.
has entered the room
Doc S.
has left the room
Brent S.
has entered the room
Casey L.
has entered the room
Brett G.
(Fresh pot of Peet's House Blend. Yum.)
tim
has entered the room
JoePlotkin
has left the room
dwitzel
has left the room
Tom G.
has left the room
Kevin D.
has left the room
Judi C.
testing, testing...
Dean L.
You pass the test, Judi
Mar 30
10:30 AM
Philip R.
has left the room
Joshua B.
has left the room
roy l.
has left the room
David B.
 Dean L. welcome back
Judi C.
video stream just reset (you may need to restart your quicktime stream)
Genny P.
has entered the room
fpaynter
url for video?
matt b.
rtsp://odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp
Steve S.
has entered the room
matt b.
but, haven't gotten it to work yet
Steve S.
any coffee geeks here got a reco for a good macchiato after lunch?
Hilarie C.
has left the room
Ken D.
matt b: Me either
fpaynter
@ matt b: r u on a Mac or Cheez, I mean PC?
Mar 30
10:35 AM
Ken D.
No luck with Linux (VLC and Totem) or Windows.
matt b.
mac
matt b.
leopard, QT 7.5.5
Don J.
has entered the room
matt b.
"Live Broadcast - Paused" it says
Brett G.
$800 for a wi-fi router?
Paul H.
has entered the room
Chris S.
has entered the room
Paul B.
has entered the room
Dirk
has entered the room
Brett G.
That
Brett G.
will burn up your 1 GB cap real quick.
Jen G.
has entered the room
David W.
what time does this thing rattle to a close tomorrow?
David W.
Damn. I wanted more ado!
Judi C.
if your video broadcast has paused, please restart the video. I had to reset the stream during the break
matt b.
when does the next panel start?
Ken B.
has entered the room
matt b.
i closed QT and relaunched
Brett G.
Google
matt b.
does "restarting the video" entail something else?
Geoff D.
has entered the room
Ken B.
Cradlepoint also makes a nice EVDO/HSDPA mobile router ...
Mar 30
10:40 AM
Shmuel F.
has entered the room
Tony A.
has entered the room
Shmuel F.
has left the room
Lynn H.
has entered the room
Shmuel F.
has entered the room
Brett G.
"Network Neutrality" == Regulation of the Internet, discouraging innovation and investment in deployment
Kwerb
has entered the room
Marvin G.
has entered the room
Nick G.
has entered the room
Doc S.
has entered the room
Frans-Anton
has entered the room
Robb T.
has entered the room
Joshua B.
has entered the room
Paul H.
Steve - my favorite coffee in downtown S.S. is Mayorga Coffee Factory, but it's a bit of a hike (3/4 mi?) 8040 Georgia Ave.
David S.
has entered the room
Brett G.
"Kill the Internet?"
Dana S.
has entered the room
Judi C.
how about close the video window, then go to Recent (File menu) and open the stream again?
Steve S.
Yay thanks Paul, sounds like a possible way to stretch my legs during lunch break!
Garret S.
has entered the room
Michael W.
has entered the room
David W.
Don't take the bait. Don't take the bait.
Steve S.
... has given way ...
Robb T.
Irene
Michael W.
is there a way to block someone in the chat from my screen?
Brett G.
Yes, this is a critical juncture: Politicos try to take control of technology to advance their own agendas
matt b.
Nope. And every time I try, it's a huge strain on my system. I'm giving up.
John S.
Don't take the bait.
AKMA A.
has entered the room
JoePlotkin
has entered the room
matt b.
has the politics session started?
Lynn S.
has entered the room
David W.
zittrain +1
Robb T.
Irene call kathy
David W.
or is it 1+ ?
Ramon E.
has entered the room
AKMA A.
(Berkman mafia sticks together)
David W.
I'm dysleftic. Can't tell left from right.
fpaynter
I'd give my right hand to be ambidextrous
Mar 30
10:45 AM
Chris S.
Politics sometimes leads technology and sometimes follows. Are we now in a time when politics leads?
Paul H.
Yes, politics session going. Tim Karr speaking
shep
has entered the room
Hilarie C.
has entered the room
JoePlotkin
Chris, politics has 8 years of catching up to do
Shmuel F.
Is it possible to get tim's pwpt?
Jeff
has entered the room
David W.
Politics and tech are too intertwingled to decide which leads.
Lynn H.
Steve: best coffee in town at Kefa Cafe... 3 blocks down Georgia on Bonifant
Alex G.
can someone close the door?
Erik C.
Chris S. I'd offer technology is transforming politics while politics (as usual) has collapsed.
David W.
Don't you want to supply all the missing "<<"s from Tim's talk? It IRKS me!!!
Dana S.
Can we close the auditorium door? I'm too far away...
Benoit F.
has entered the room
Andrew F.
has entered the room
isen
has left the room
Brett G.
Creating a straw man to fight.... Make carriers out to be evil
Jeff
Alex G.: Need... air!
Andrew F.
*gag*
Chris S.
Eric, politics has not collapsed. What do you mean? And, Joe, politics can "catch up" with a change of administration -- like we just had.
David W.
Hmm. Crowd-sourcing the closing of the door seems not to be working.
Russell S.
has entered the room
Andrew F.
the violins are for the dying media?
Peter C.
has left the room
Brett G.
Audio on the stream just went dead. Video is still going.
iz
has entered the room
Steve S.
thx Lynn H
Michael W.
Yeah
Chris S.
How about this: Hey you! Yeah, you, by the door! Get up and close it, OK? <g>
fpaynter
audio out here too
JoePlotkin
Yes we are desperate to have them catch up -- but they have LOTS to do
Brian W.
has entered the room
David S.
Failed audio stream = virtual closing of door
Chris S.
The Kitty Genovese effect at work. Too many people are "by the door..."
Erik C.
Chris, that's relative to how one defines politics; Obama campaign collapsed old systems; illusion of free market (certainly a form of politics b/c you can't separate gov't, regulatory paradigms, etc. from the ideology) has collapsed as well; technology enabling ground up everywhere.
Michael W.
Is this the Chiropratic Conference?
Andrew F.
++ Chris S
Brett G.
If it were, we could adjust the door.
Harold F.
has entered the room
Shawn W.
has entered the room
Michael W.
I feel better already
Jeff
There is no privacy
Arnon K.
has entered the room
Mar 30
10:50 AM
fpaynter
hah, I get it... "Perfect alignment" (I can read, but I still can't hear)
Jean R.
principles: Openness, Transparency, Innovation, Privacy, Access - princples of Perfect Alignnment
Brett G.
Still no sound
Shawn W.
Transparency is about more than just making the information available. It must also be accessible -- citizen-friendly.
Chris S.
Brett, are you still in Wyoming today?
Brett G.
Last I checked. ;-)
Erik C.
Transparency is also about relevance - look at FCC website - info is there but you've got to have some expertise to locate what matters.
David W.
Ellen does fantastic work! Ellen +1 and/or Ellen 1+
Alex G.
oh noes! vista!
Micah S.
REposting Dan Gillmor's joke: uh oh, launching vista...we have time to get coffee
Chris S.
So, is PowerPoint evil because it screws up creating and connected presentations? Or is it critical so remotely located folks can follow along even when the audio goes out...?
Brough T.
has entered the room
Micah S.
actually, not
Rafael D.
has left the room
Kwerb
has left the room
Michael W.
that's so nice
Micah S.
Follow @ellnmllr on Twitter, plus http://www.sunlightfoundation.com
Sara W.
has entered the room
Michael W.
Go Ellen!!!!
Aleecia M.
has entered the room
sean s.
has entered the room
David W.
Go Sunlight Foundation!!!
Michael W.
Hurray for the Congress pop-ups
Michael W. 
<script src='http://www.sunlightlabs.com/popuppoliticians/sunlightpopups.js'></script>
Dean L.
Thank you, Lynn!
Michael W.
great taffy
Michael W.
salt water taffy
David W.
Shouldn't the photo be of _sausages_ being made?
Andrew F.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm taffy
Dean L.
heh, looks like a certain shroom
Michael W.
that's pizza i'm guessing
Micah S.
You want to see how they make taffy in Congress?
Chris S.
Are we now going to hear about "sticky" marketing campaigns...?
Andrew F.
no, that's the NORML powerpoint
Michael W.
meat or no?
Micah S.
We're going to chew on things now
Dean L.
or campaigns from Atlantic City?
Brett G.
If sunlight is indeed the best of disinfectants, why do so many DC lobbying groups refuse to reveal their funding sources? Free Press, for example, will not reveal who funds it.
Michael W.
eat it up guys
Dan A.
has entered the room
Mar 30
10:55 AM
AKMA A.
Rah, rah, rah
Michael W.
don't take the bait, people
Andrew F.
Brett G: 501(c)(3) has to make their donors available.
Michael W.
don't take it
Chris S.
"Band of Bloggers"? I like it. "We few, we happy few..."
Brett G.
Actually, Andrew, they aren't required to reveal that portion of their Form 990.
Fred J.
has entered the room
Brett G.
Perhaps this is something that Congress should change!
Harold F.
We band of bloggers, for he who burns his bits with me this day shall be my brother . . .
Robb T.
has left the room
Harold F.
No matter how vile, this day shall make him not a troll!
Michael W.
bad pizza that is
Michael W.
Coach!
iz
But no real fallout on Rangel right?
David W.
We band of brothers, for he who burns his bits with me this day shall be my blogger . . .
Aleecia M.
sausage pizza, of course
Andrew F.
He could out-wrestle you though
Michael W.
back to high school wrestling?
Dean L.
Rangel just ignores bad news
Chris S.
Andrew: that's such an ugly thought. Cf. "Barton Fink"
Dean L.
He and Barney Frank should do cartoon voices togetherr
Andrew F.
Charlie Rangel is indistructable. He and John Dingell have superhuman robot bodies.
Sara W.
Andrew: the real shadow organizations are the 501c(6)'s and the like
Brett G.
Does this make you "blog brothers?"
Michael W.
the pizza delivery man?
iz
dean: and limericks
Michael W.
follow the pizza....
Dean L.
iz: heh
Deb C.
we few, we happy few
Michael W.
that's my hand!!!
David W.
funny photo (Stevens' palm)
matt b.
has left the room
Andrew F.
umm
Andrew F.
hold?
Steve S.
great slide
Andrew F.
COBURN!
Michael W.
you can't show Steven's hand
Chris S.
iz: There once was a blogger named Rick
iz
she is doing the callout to her peeps rasiej and sifry :-)
Micah S.
(9 more lines) 
Brett G, here's the list of Free Press's funders, from their 2007 annual report: Dudley foundation 
ford foundation 
frances fund  
Glaser progress foundation 
Haas Charitable Trusts 
Madrona foundation 
Nathan Cummings foundation 
Open society Institute 
Overbrook foundation 
park foundation 
proteus fund 
Quixote foundation 
revson foundation 
rockefeller Brothers fund 
rockefeller family fund 
...
Michael W.
now he is home in Alaska... eating pizza!!!
Chris S.
Who saw things that made him quite sick...
Andrew F.
No, you can't show Inouye's (non) hand
Sara W.
staying on the topic of 501c(x)'s, a lot of ostensible non-profits actually plop a lot of their resources there--where there is not nearly as much oversight and reporting requirements are almost nil.
Dean L.
there once was a pol named Charlie Rangel
Micah S.
David W.
oh, micah, you and your facts! So cute!
Dean L.
with whom the NY press did tangle
Michael W.
M, don't take the bait
Sara W.
fact are soooo cute.
Sara W.
i meant facts.
Andrew F.
Dean: Charlie hasn't had a bad day since.
Sara W.
i'm in my preverbal state at the moment
Brett G.
The real "shadow organizations" are the ones that aren't even set up as trackable organzations. For example, "Save the Internet" and "Internet for Everyone."
David W.
1 million of those searches were from Sen Stevens, looking for his glasses.
Mar 30
11:00 AM
iz
can we stop feeding the trolls in here please?
Mar 30
11:00 AM
Dean L.
yeah, Charlie kept the 2 apts and the Carib digs
Michael W.
don't take it
James C.
has left the room
Brett G.
Micah: Source for that list?
Judi C.
David W, they got caught in the tubes.
Sara W.
oddly, sen stevens was searching the wrong tubes
Micah S.
Glenn S.
Culberson was using it for a long time from Texas
Chris S.
Surely someone has figured out a version of "Rockin' Robin" that touts Twitter...?
Michael W.
I'm tweeting right now. Can you tell?
Andrew F.
Hey, didn't someone break that story LAST JULY?!?
Dean L.
Stevens was pre-tubescent
Andrew F.
I wonder who that was.
JoePlotkin
But can NYC save the $2 subway fare?
Judi C.
Twitter tag reminder: #ptc09
Michael W.
Does it show?
AKMA A.
We know legislators tweet; we saw Claire McCaskill during Obama's address to Congress
christian A.
has entered the room
John S.
Note the bait and switch, with no admission that freepress does indeed make public its contributors.
Andrew F.
Oh yeah. Thanks.
Glenn S.
Culberson uses Seismic and other tools as well despite being very conservative
Sara W.
David W.
OMG, judi's typo has forked our twitter! Disaster!!!!
Sara W.
dean+++
Arnon K.
has left the room
Michael W.
The amazing thing about what Ellen is doing is that it is truly two way. She is careful to remove the intermediation.
AKMA A.
Judi: F2C09, n'est-ce pas?
Sara W.
david w: i cannot believe you are using such profanity.
David W.
open house url?
Michael W.
The federal government now leads nearly all state and local governments
Micah S.
that's one of our interns undergoing training
Paul H.
Twitter tags #f2c09 (some also using #f2c but 09 seems to be most "official)
David W.
wow, that photo is the _opposite_ of sunlight!
David W.
did you hear that too?
Micah S.
actually, it's an NFL ref do an instant replay check
Sara W.
it's just plain weird
shep
that time announcement was a few minutes late
Andrew F.
Open House project has not done anything to open up congress to new media
Sara W.
it's the lady with the pillow case over her head, actually
Dean L.
that was Big Brother (gender challenged) telling us what time it is
David W.
shep, that's because it came over wireless, not fiber.
Andrew F.
or even startups
Benoit F.
has left the room
Judi C.
sorry, yes, apparently f2c and f2c09
Andrew F.
that recommendation has been completely ignored.
Michael W.
its a computer snuggie!
Dean L.
Judi: #F2C09 - remember the pound sign!
Brett G.
John S: No bait and switch at all. FP refuses to reveal the portion of its IRS Form 990 that lists all of the contributors and the amounts. Many orgs will not willingly list contributors whose identities might be embarrassing in a published report, but they MUST do so on Form 990.
Micah S.
Andrew F.: please be more specific. Making it possible for Members of Congress to use new media is a big shift. We want them to credential bloggers, too, but that hasn't happened yet...
Jeff
Thanks, Ellen
Mar 30
11:05 AM
David W.
And yet, when it comes to guys in raincoats, it turns out that sunlight is NOT the best disinfectant, Go figure.
Mar 30
11:05 AM
Michael W.
Thank Elllen for giving you your country back
Michael W.
was that gubmint sausage? Now I get it!
Steve S.
hear hear for OWD
Dick C.
has entered the room
Harold F.
Yes, we get to see how it is being made.
Andrew F.
Micah: I'm not talking about bloggers
Micah S.
Now that Susan is working for the White House, we expect a big announcement of a new national holiday
Harold F.
Paul W.
need more power outlets or a stimulus package for battery technology improvements
Micah S.
So, Andrew F, tell us what you're complaining about.
Andrew F.
I'm taking about the entire closed process that lets "old media" control who gets in
Joshua B.
digital literacy needs to include Internet policy
Brett G.
Andrew F: "Gets in" to what?
Joshua B.
and media production
Harold F.
Joshua B. I think you mean "Internet policy must include digital literacy"
Greg E.
has entered the room
Andrew F.
media credentials which allow access to hearings, markups, etc.
Michael W.
don't take the bait
Joshua B.
harold f. - that's also true
Lynn H.
you can get copies of most 990's down at the foundation center. they have a great database, but you have to hoof it to their office
Andrew F.
Joshua B.
but i mean that, when we teach people how to use the internet, we need to teach how to add content to it and how to participate in the governance
Brett G.
Andrew F: There really is a credentialing problem. When everyone is a journalist, no one is.
Andrew F.
I won't go into the pitfalls of the term "citizen journalism"
Michael W.
deliver...pizza...it's all the same metaphor. Amzing
Andrew F.
but there has been zero progress on that point
Andrew F.
Brett: agreed.
Jeff
Journalism is the foundation of democracy, period
Andrew F.
but the system as it exists is TOTALLY opaque.
Andrew N.
has entered the room
harold g.
has entered the room
David Y.
Isn't journalism at risk? What's the business model?
David W.
ORCA, I like journalism, but I didn't find your "period" to be a convincing argument.
Andrew F.
hey, it's Andrew.
Brett G.
Why does there have to be ONE business model?
sean s.
has left the room
Ron C.
has entered the room
Jean R.
shep
where's the boundary between Journalism and not-Journalism ?
Mar 30
11:10 AM
Aleecia M.
There has to be at least one that works.
Marvin G.
has left the room
Jeff
Period of evolutionary change? Is that better?
David W.
Well, Brett, there has to be at least one. Isn't that the question?
Casey L.
journalism = an editor
David W.
journalism is miscellaneous[tm]
JoePlotkin
innovation always comes from outside
iz
casey: journalism=daily writing
Paul H.
Andrew: Gov20Camp (last week) and Clubub working on opening up other social media channels, maybe more focused on agencies but hill needs work too.
AKMA A.
Small journalists, loosely joined
Brett G.
If diversity is the best strategy, why are so many lobbyists trying to kill diversity in Internet business models -- including the ways that carriers price and position their services?
Jen G.
Huffington investigative initiative, 1.75 million for starters... journalism (particularly investigative) will be predominantly foundation-funded within 5 years. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huff… Love the examples of journalists getting laid off and starting 501c3s.
David I.
has entered the room
Andrew F.
casey: it's a process that involves getting the story "right."
Tony A.
journalism is turning data into useful information. non-journalism is transcripts of meetings. OTOH, just having transcripts of meetings at all levels of govt. (including local) would go a long way towards enabling journalists to find what to distill down.
Brett G.
If journalism goes nonprofit, then corporations will control it completely via "donations."
iz
if you look at the actual source of the word, the first journalists must have been writing diaries... they were bloggers, essentially
Aleecia M.
as opposed to controlling v. ad placement?
Michael W.
don't take the bait
Shawn W.
has left the room
shep
Casey L -- I'm not so sure "journalism = an editor" is helpful.
David W.
yes, andrew f, but there's a prior question about the viability of the notion of "the story."
Glenn S.
Breaking News - President Obama: It is a failure of leadership, from Washington to Detroit, that led our auto companies to this point.
Jessyca H.
has entered the room
Joshua B.
tony A. - only if those transcripts are in xml, not pdf, and the announcements of meetings and publication or transcripts are announced by email and RSS
isen
has entered the room
isen
Questions from outside the room?
Dick C.
has left the room
David I.
How "one turns data into useful information" is the key issue.
isen
David I -- is that the military analyst David I?
isen
:-)
Casey L.
the role of an editor is the only thing that comes to mind that distinguishes the "professional journalist" class from the unwashed bloggers. (with all due respect and affection for the unwashed bloggers)
David I.
There has to be a certain willigness to do more than conversion from one to the other. A certain added value must happen by dint of the reporter's willigness to see and fill in gaps.
David S.
has left the room
Hilarie C.
has left the room
Jessyca H.
has left the room
David I.
Yes, writing from Oslo.
Jen G.
Data into "useful" information (as in, one of the scariest things you'll see. Growth of Walmart in America, visualized over time-space continuum: http://projects.flowingdata.com/walmart/
Tony A.
Joshua: XML is not a panacea. I wouldn't trust most governments to tag it correctly (other than the date, time and title of the meeting). PDF can be crawled and indexed. Audio can be machine-transcribed very well, often to the individual speakers.
isen
Cool -- hello David I
Andrew F.
Casey: it's the process, not the hiararchy
David Y.
How do we connect the 25% or so of households without a PC (or whose PC is so ancient as to be unusable for broadband)?
Mar 30
11:15 AM
Aleecia M.
"digital resistance" is an interesting phrase. I'm not surprised people are seeing this.
isen
Good Q David Y
Dan G.
has entered the room
David Y.
Are devices like the iPod Touch part of the answer?
David I.
Well, no, Casey. The reporter brings certain skills to the job, than editor may not have, and a blogger usually does not.
Brett G.
Aleecia: You can only buy so many ads, but you can pay a lot more in bribes. Instead of buying a few more ads, they'll pour in many millions in "contributions" -- all tax-deductible to boot!
Casey L.
but iz - I agree the origin of the term is a crucial part. There are entire conferences dedicated the question. It's a tough one.
Jen G.
Xbox can be better hardware for some households.
Nicholas M.
has entered the room
Joshua B.
nathan, i agree with that
David Y.
true
Paul H.
As for-profit journalism faces more pressure to "sell its soul" to survive, perhaps more multi-modal funding available to nonprofits could lead to truer independence
Sara W.
has left the room
Steve S.
some low income women at CrittentonWomensUnion were profiled in the Boston Globe and got some negative hate mail on the articles commentary, it was pretty traumatic for them
Brett G.
Not all reporters bring such great skills to the job, as almost anyone who has ever been interviewed for a newspaper article can attest.
Robb T.
has entered the room
AKMA A.
Libraries offer a tremendous opportunity for public connectivity -- don't neglect the librarians!
Jeff
Paul H.: See Jen G.'s link from Huffington
David W.
Yes, Akma. Especially once those libraries have a SINGLE FRICKING TERMINAL to access e-books, via the Google Books settlement.
David I.
Actually, journalism has been experiments with non-pfofir models. Pro Publica is one of them. And Brian Bender of the Boston Globe recently set up a site for foreign affairs reporting.
Tony A.
DavidY: Getting those households PCs is only a small part of the problem. You still have to get those people affordable connectivity. If they don't have a PC yet, I expect they don't want to spend $30/month for access.
Andrew F.
The vast majority of journalists I know (in the small corner of the world I cover) are very, very good.
Brett G.
There is a big vacuum out here on the Internet; everyone's in there.
Tom V.
has entered the room
Doc S.
Interesting that some journals survive (if not thrive) on subscriptions. http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2009/03/2…
Russell S.
has left the room
Aleecia M.
There is a push to wire Rwanda with the belief that the Internet will help bring people together. And I'm thinking: have you ever seen a flame war?
David I.
Brett, no profession is perfect. Your point could just as well be made about members of Congress, for example, but at least in the print realm there are mroe good ones than bad ones.
Glenn S.
Tony A - in the developing world people will buy an expensive computer because they know it will change the future for their children and then they need connectivity.
Harold F.
What's the link for live stream?
Brett G.
Congress is still beholden to special interests; they're just different special interests.
Andrew F.
I see at least two in the chat room that I'd probably hire before I hired myself.
David Y.
Tony A, most of the studies I've seen (Pew Internet, eg) show that cost of broadband is not the primary reason that people don't have PCs or Internet access.
Joshua B.
Tony A - I think this is what Mark Cooper was saying - So many more people are already paying for a mobile device and service, if we can improve that we can make important strides towards expanding access.
Dean L.
Harold: rtsp://odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp
Glenn S.
Aleecia M. Having worked in the region, especially Uganda and Kenya and Rwanda, they are using connectivity to make major changes in government deployment of services.
shep
Wow, we have two different David Isenbergs. See http://isen.com/blog/2004/02/other-david-i…
Harold F.
David Y: It's a complex equation. Cost is one factor, but it is more accurate to say "value" is the issue.
Brett G.
Fortunately, most of the members of Congress understand that so-called "network neutrality" legislation isn't "neutral" at all; it favors certain corporations over others and would be extremely destructive.
Harold F.
Show me it's worth the price.
David Y.
I'm sure there are some for whom broadband cost is a barrier, and for those cases, perhaps an end-user subsidy of some sort makes sense
David W.
This is a Spartacus moment: _I_ am Isenberg!
Mar 30
11:20 AM
Aleecia M.
Glenn S: I'd love to see "how to communicate over the 'net" as something taught. How to be civil, basically. And build it in from the start.
Mar 30
11:20 AM
Ken B.
has left the room
Harold F.
But the question of cost informs value for many people.
JoePlotkin
I hate to admit this - I agree with BrettG
David Y.
Harold F, yes, "I don't see the value" is a common response
Harold F.
Even if they don't say "it cost too much." The phrase" it's not worth it" is informed by cost.
Brett G.
We find that broadband cost is a minor barrier. Not WANTING to be on the Net is actually a bigger one.
Judi C.
Harold, must use Quicktime. If your system starts up Real Player, the stream won't work (different rtsp protocols)
Marvin G.
has entered the room
AKMA A.
Again, public users with library access are a powerful fulcrum
Micah S.
Yes, Rs Tweet 2x at rate of Ds. Mainly because they have nothing else to do.
Joshua B.
aleecia M. - journalism (the history, practice, and ethics) should be taught in schools grades 6-12
SLW
has entered the room
Dean L.
Harold: VLC player (opens ource, all platforms) works like a charm
Harold F.
Yes, public users in libraries and elsewhere are important. Just ask folks on "cyber Monday."
Judi C.
audio stream from iTunes: http://odo.warpspeed.com:8000/f2c09.mp3
AKMA A.
"Ownership" of PCs and broadband not the only path
Andrew F.
@ Micah what does that say about some of us? ;-)
David Y.
Library access is a great way to expose people to the value of broadband
Harold F.
I just want to repost the link for followers on twitter.
Glenn S.
Aleecia S - my work in Macedonia was done to generate greater connectivity between the two polarised ethnic populations.
Aleecia M.
http://www.thebeehive.org/ -- one attempt to make the Internet useful to low-income citizens
Micah S.
I can't answer that question, Andrew R., I'm too busy tweeting.
Lynn H.
David Y - this is critical. especially as you see schools moving to homework that must be done online and projects that are reliant on the internet. for those who don't have computers at home, they're already penalized. the schools have limited computers for use after hours and here in SS the average wait for a computer at the library is 2+ hours.
Aleecia M.
Joshua B: that would be interesting
Andrew F.
You could always just DM the answer ;-)
Aleecia M.
Glenn S: how's that working? I can imagine it working well or horribly. It seems like the sort of thing that requires some thought and care.
David I.
I don't think access to the online world in and of itself is nearly enough. There has to be access to quality data sources also. What I would like to see is people having access to the sort of databases that the average college university student has in their library.
Fred H.
has entered the room
David Y.
Lynn H, you are right. Actually, many who don't have computers now do say that they will go online when their kids start school. Most parents recognize that broadband access IS important for their kids.
Glenn S.
Aleecia M - Would love to tell you all about it. You can view some of it at glennstrachancv.blogspot.com
Andrew F.
@ David I -- that could be possible if they didnt cost so much
David W.
David I: This is one more reason we ought to be paying tremendous attention to the Google Book settlement.
Aleecia M.
Thanks!
Andrew F.
CQ $2k MINIMUM per person per year
Stig
has left the room
Brian K.
has left the room
Brian W.
has left the room
harold g.
has left the room
AKMA A.
We should be applying pressure not only via Google Books settlement, but also via value-adding Creative Commons and out-of-copyright materials
Mar 30
11:25 AM
Doc S.
I'm with Joe and Brett on NN legislation, but only in questioning if it's necessary. (In other words, I like it as a principle, but worry about burning it into law, especially when up against giant lobbying machines that live to widen loopholes.) Michael Powell's remarks here three years ago still apply. I quoted him at some length here: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8979
shep
at least television is less dominant today than it was in previous years or decades.
JoePlotkin
Doc, I just wish we could restore common carriage
David I.
Well, the Google book settlment is important, and there were some recent back and forth exchanges on that in the NY Review of Books, but I am moe concerned about things like Lexis-Nexis, WorldCat, FBIS (now Dialog), Project Muse, Scopus,...
tim
has left the room
David W.
Yes, AKMA, but the goog settlement will effectively give goog a monopoly (or at least a tremendous market position) on distribution of scanned materials, in and out of copyright. Cf special deal with Sony to distributed copyright-free books.
David Y.
If you haven's looked at Pew's research, you should - http://www.pewinternet.org/Reports/2009/Ge…
AKMA A.
All of the above -- yes, yes
David W.
David I, yes, Rbt Darnton on the goog settlement in NYRB is seminal. And, we can of course multitask our fears, and worry about all these things simultaneously.
JoePlotkin
I also fear that NN regs would be impossible to enforce
David W.
[David W goes for a virtual drink]
Shaun D.
has entered the room
Doc S.
TV is a dead concept walking. http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/what-h…
Aleecia M.
David I: when I (finally) graduate from CMU (again), I'm going to miss the library's VPN the most. Free access to most journals is a huge win. But I don't see that going free any time soon.
Jeff
I've fallen and I can't get up!
Chris S.
Joe, re: NN "regs" -- NN is not a set of rules. It is simply a principle akin to those already long-established in communications law: the obligation to be "reasonable" and "non-discriminatory." Precisely what those terms mean can only be filled in on a case-by-case basis.
Glenn S.
I've fallen and I need to Twitter that!
AKMA A.
Aye, access to academic databases tremendously important -- we can help leverage access to extant dbs by working on routing around them at the same time
David I.
I'd even be pleased if Google Scholar was more widely used, though it could use some more work. Try finding the date of publication on many of the result, for example. Or try finding the name of a book, in which an individual chapter pops usp.
Doc S.
I'm a senior editor. Would this program be good for me?
Rafael D.
has entered the room
Chris S.
Doc -- It depends... are you still "hip"?
Nathaniel J.
has entered the room
JoePlotkin
Chris, as u know the telecom act wasnt enforced - and those were physical loops (and othe unes) How will they find 100ms of latency?
Mar 30
11:30 AM
Andrew F.
Doc: I am glad LJ still exists. Was my first byline many years ago.
Mar 30
11:30 AM
AKMA A.
I thoink Doc looks better than the box
Brett G.
"Case by case basis" is really scary; you don't know you've violated something until you're punished. Violates due process, as the Comcast ruling did.
Chris S.
Joe, there's no substitute for having people with a motivation to enforce the law.
Glenn S.
USAID is sponsoring Telemed activities along with PEPFAR in Kenya and Rwanda and will eventually be found in 11 countries throughout Africa. PEPFAR is monitoring HIV/AIDS activities.
Doc S.
I'll try to stay out of the box for as long as possible.
Erik C.
Chris S. there's no substitute for lots of law to enforce.
Justin H.
has entered the room
Erik C.
<g>
Brett G.
The Brady Bunch
Chris S.
Brett -- it doesn't violate due process if you get process during the proceeding. Agencies in general (including the FCC) know how to have adjudicatory proceedings.
Jim Y.
has entered the room
Jeff
Many in Vermont don't have TV
Michael W.
Doc, i heard you say at Berkman you have FIOS. How many customer in WA do you think they have?
Andrew F.
Brett: problem with FCC is it's not actually bound by precedent.
JoePlotkin
We had plenty of people upset when false "no facilities" from Vz
David W.
Suppose we get 4 people in a box. Could it then handle 48 people? How about if we compress the people?
Brent S.
has left the room
Brett G.
Even "adjudicatory" proceedings have to start with rules or laws. They can't make up regulations out of whole cloth.
Chris S.
Andrew: Actually, it is, although not quite as much as a court. they can change their mind but they have to explain why.
Andrew F.
they can reverse themselves as long as they can justify it under the APA
Jeff
Advantage of FCC is "it's not actually bound by precedent."
Michael W.
FCC doesn't use the APA except in a very narrow set of proceedings
Doc S.
Michael, hate to say I don't know all the places where FiOS is. It's not in Cambridge, but is in Newton, Arlington and some other places. Red Bank, NJ. I think it has to do with easy access and maximizing the number of drops per mile.
Andrew F.
Chris: right. it can't be arbitrary or caprecious
Chris S.
Brett: Right, agreed. The interesting (to me) legal question in the Comcast case is whether the FCC actually has jurisdiction under today's law over the whole NN thing.
Andrew F.
No, but it's technically bound by APA.
Tom V.
re Doc's assertion that TV is dead, anyone know of any studies comparing the lengths of the "long tail" in metered & scarcity-priced vs. flat-rate, high bandwidth markets?
Harold F.
Chris S. We'll find out soon enough.
Andrew F.
(to Michael W)
Brett G.
Chris: That's a good question. Federal law says that the Internet should be "unfettetered by Federal or state regulation." The FCC tried to override that.
Jeff
Then who would have jurisdiction over NN?
Brett G.
Congress, if it so chose.
Chris S.
Brett: Right. But the same federal law also says the FCC has jurisdiction over all "communications by wire or radio."
Doc S.
I agree with Brett that the FCC may have overstepped legally. *May* have. Don't really know. But the decision didn't feel right to me, even though I lose no love on a company that botched its case in front of the FCC royally.
Harold F.
If TV is dead, why did we just have a huge to do over the DTV transition?
Andrew F.
Chris: of course IANAL but my vegas bookie says dont bet on the FCC in the CAFC
Mar 30
11:35 AM
Tony A.
Because some people with analog TV are also voters. :-)
Brett G.
The case will likely come to court this summer, and Harold F is likely to be involved
Harold F.
Hint, not because of frustrated LTE users.
Harold F.
I am involved.
Harold F.
Although my role has changed.
Doc S.
The DTV transition already happened when nearly everybody went to cable and satellite, and the remaining sum of over-the-air watchers equaled the number of CB radio users. All the rest is politics vs. engineering and the latter lost.
Fred J.
has left the room
Andrew N.
has left the room
Harold F.
My former colleagues at MAP are now representing Petitioners Vuze, CU, and PennPirg.
Jeff
Joe Bookchin's Mom?
Harold F.
I am now representing intervenor PK.
David W.
Here's an embarrassingly IANAL question: Couldn't the FCC decide to reclassify the Title the Net is under?
Andrew F.
David: no
Dirk
has left the room
Philip R.
has entered the room
DirkvanderWoude
has entered the room
Harold F.
Yes, but it would need to explain why it changed it's mind.
David W.
Andrew F: Why not?
Chris S.
If the court says the FCC has no jurisdiction over NN, what do you think Congress would do?
Harold F.
That would be very hard.
iz
should we all be doing this?
iz
I challenge you to stand up
Harold F.
I think it is very difficult for this Congress to do nothing if the DC Cir finds no jurisdicion.
Glenn S.
Can we do this using our EVDO router from our car?
Stig
has entered the room
David W.
Worst. Webcam. Ever.
Brett G.
It's sad that a PIRG got in on the wrong side of that case. Comcast was trying to preserve quality of service for consuyemrs.
David W.
:)
Micah S.
Anybody find a url showing Telecare for Rural Health Project in action???
Chris S.
Harold, can you articulate why a transmission from my computer to a URL, and then a transmission of the requested files back to me, fails to meet the definition of "telecommunications" in the Act?
Geoff D.
has left the room
Robb T.
has left the room
Andrew F.
Harold F: is your brief available online?
Jeff
"Comcast was trying to preserve quality of service for consuyemrs." OMG... ROTFL
AKMA A.
I evidently don't check out as many webcams as David W
Micah S.
I love this.
Harold F.
According to the S.Ct., the FCC could so decide.
iz
why am I the only one doing this? get up people!
JoePlotkin
Micah me too
Harold F.
Apparently, because of DNs.
Steve S.
I'm imagining this built in as a WII app, with the camera auto recognizing motions
Steve S.
and moving avatars
Chris S.
I'm not asking what the existing precedent might say. E.g., can you distinguish DNS from the 800 database?
Harold F.
iz I would hit the people on either side of me.
Harold F.
No. That's why I argued for Title II.
Brett G.
Sorry for the typo. In any event, that's what the Comcast engineers were up to. And the proof of this is that management didn't even understand it; that's why they bungled the PR
iz
h - not if they were also bending at the same time!
Steve S.
that's why it would be great if some of those gameing platforms would open up more
Jen G.
Next up, massive multiplayer Dance Dance Revolution for seniors.
Joshua B.
is there a url for this project?
Aleecia M.
Please explain your proof that somehow the execs managed to have no idea how their network works, despite knowing they were going in front of congress to talk about it.
Mar 30
11:40 AM
iz
it is a proven fact that exercise makes you younger
Mar 30
11:40 AM
Jeff
Sorry, Brett. Not a comment on the typo.
JoePlotkin
Tim Nulty, does this run on your fiuber net?
Steve S.
there's a (growing) market for MMOs aimed at seniors, and bringing physical activity into it is a natural direction
JoePlotkin
fiber
Aleecia M.
Last time, Brett, you were posing that as conjecture. This year you have proof? Bring it.
Harold F.
This application is very cool. I can see many useful applications in other situations.
Harold F.
Although I am having a bad 1984 flashback.
David W.
Seniors need more fiber.
JoePlotkin
2-way video = the killer app
iz
those old folks have some serious indigestion
Steve S.
noise on the vent channel
AKMA A.
Or wireless, or wireless, they're synergistic
Dean L.
they need to exercise their fiber
Micah S.
David W +++ wins prize for best WTF themed snark-pun
iz
hh dean
JoePlotkin
i knew someone would make the fiber joke
Harold F.
The part where Winston is doing the exercise show and the instructor calls him out for doing it wrong.
Harold F.
Disturbing question: How do I know when the connection is off?
Jeff
Got fiber?
David W.
And yet, Joe, you restrained yourself. What are you, an adult?
AKMA A.
Exercise online = double-plus good
SLW
There is a research paper on the project: http://www.liebertonline.com/doi/abs/10.10…
Harold F.
Can the feds turn it on? With a warrant, of course....
JoePlotkin
David W - no just pacing myself
Doc S.
Brett, they also bungled the PR by packing the Ames Courtroom with street people. It was even more weird than it was dumb. Right up there with those car maker CEOs flying corporate jets to Congress when they went begging for $billions.
Steve S.
many MMO technologies could be repurposed here
Stig
Yes, remote telehealth. VA piloting nicely.
Dean L.
virtual visiting nurse?
iz
dean, she has the cure for what ails you.
Brett G.
Aleecia: I talked to folks at Comcast immediately after the case was filed. Both ther PR people and upper management were, frankly, clueless about the entire concept of traffic management. It was being done by the engineers. Which makes sense; it's a best practice in the industry.
Steve S.
Second Life yoga classes?
Dan G.
Brilliant experiment (rural telemedicine) -- we need a million more experiments of various kinds.
Tony A.
Can we do this without the application specific box? Can the box be opened for other VC purposes?
Jim Y.
has left the room
iz
if it doesn't just work on a regular tv, why don't they just use skype?
AKMA A.
Steve -- changes the whole game mechanics of Warcraft
JoePlotkin
TonyA - sure, but this shows innovation that is only possible with broadband connections
Steve S.
tony a, it does beg for an open platform doesn't it. The t'ai chi class should be just one of many apps
Dean L.
Iz; skype might be blocked by certain systems
Brett G.
Doc: I haven't been able to get a straight answer about the people in the courtroom. But they seem to have been line holders.
Mar 30
11:45 AM
Jeff
JoePlotkin
expands our constituencies beyond this room
Michael W.
I do all my yoga on Second Life. Its great, and I don't get sweaty.
Brett G.
One of the things that we started doing at our inception was telemedicine.
David W.
spell eva's last name please someone?
AKMA A.
Sollberger
Steve S.
akma i've been paying some attention to camera-tracking of movements lately, projecting the tech forward 5 - 10 years there's going to be some very interesting possiblies for new input modalities
Dean L.
Eva Sollberger, Stuck in Vermont Video Blog
Doc S.
Aleecia M.
Brett, if you start with the assumption Comcast is lily white, perhaps "we assert we're honest" is persuasive. If you start from the assumption they are not, it is not.
Steve S.
... and I'm sure things like WoW will drive adoption
Doc S.
Tony A.
Joe: Yes. And it works best on a connection which does not throttle your upstream traffic.
JoePlotkin
upstream is where the action is!
AKMA A.
Steve -- glad we're casters; I'd hate to have to be a prot warrior
Justin H.
there's also some interesting things developing with augmented reality
isen
That's STUCK IN VERMONT
Steve S.
:)
Michael W.
don't get a big head
Brett G.
A newspaper with video: "The Quibbler" in Harry Potter
JoePlotkin
the internet is PARTICIPATORY
Dean L.
1% growth in 08 -- that beats the NY Times!
iz
"stuck in vermont" does not exactly convey the message of a whole bunch of "kids" who are "happy" to stay in state
Chris S.
iz, don't you get irony? <g>
Justin H.
it's "ironical"
iz
hh chris
AKMA A.
Eva exemplifies the right track; Doc S. "making money not ON the internet, but BESIDE the internet"
JoePlotkin
Steve- we assume WoW gets it -- this is about AARP too
isen
You gotta watch a few "Stuck in VT" vids to get the picture
Chris S.
Although maybe it has something to do with the taffy, earlier...
Dean L.
no,not the taffy...up there it is the maple syrup
Chris S.
Still sticky, though...
Jeff
We used to practice irony in Vermont, nobody understood so we stopped.
Doc S.
Speedtest: http://speedtest.vonage.com (it's the best). Says 15.092Mb downstream, 34.626Mb upstream. Wireless (at least upstream) faster than my fiber at home. Just saying.
David W.
New tagline: "Vermont: As Ironic as Howard Dean."
Mar 30
11:50 AM
Dean L.
Green Mountain Irony...sounds like a brand of coffee
AKMA A.
Still some outposts of irony in VT -- my son goes to Marlboro
isen
What is a Derby Dame?
Justin H.
I'm thinking roller derby
David W.
I think it's ladies in hats. No?
JoePlotkin
Roller Derby rules!
Brett G.
Doc: 802.11g or b?
Brett G.
Or a?
Judi C.
We're running B, G, and N
Chris S.
Doc: Heh. Per that site, we've got about 18 down/17 up right here.
Doc S.
dunno. I'm guessing g. Maybe somebody in the room knows. Judi? Dewayne?
Doc S.
Chris, where is here?
Brett G.
It's good that the b isn't slowing it down too much.
Ken B.
has entered the room
Tony A.
Roller Derby in horse set hats. That would be tricky.
Ken B.
Actually 5 GHz 802.11n
Dean L.
Tom Metzner gets some national attn
Dean L.
he's a hoot
AKMA A.
Alison Bechdel FTW
Chris S.
Doc, "here" is sitting by the door next to Dean L
David W.
If they pull back far enough, will we see elders in leotards?
Aleecia M.
kite surfing in VT: brrrr
Justin H.
Chanel did a campaign with ladies in brown derbies last year, I think
Dean L.
I rent that seat by the session
Ken B.
I want the patent on those broomsticks
Doc S.
Does Middlebury Quiddich involve fling on brooms?
AKMA A.
David, you're stuck on those Tai Chi webcams
Brett G.
I want a snitch
Lynn H.
So in VT, they've learned how to make brooms fly
David W.
I will never forget the web cams, AKMA. For I am one of them.
Justin H.
I think Vermont is just bragging about their rich hipster subculture.
Brough T.
And, if everyone in the room tries a speedtest at the same time..., your result may vary.
Dean L.
Peter King/Tiny Houses,not to be confused with Don Ho
Chris S.
4, 3, 2, 1....
Michael W.
very vermont... is that like Northwest Smug?
iz
it's a pyramid scheme
David W.
C'mon! Let's all flush the superbowl bit toilet at once!
Paul H.
Is the video hooked up to screen, or is that just a cool screensaver.
Brett G.
Henry David Thoreau
Michael W.
a phone? yer kidding right?
John S.
Justin H.
it's an IRONIC screensaver
Michael W.
we're talking tiny
Stig
Now he has a mega-mansion?
Michael W.
the tinyiest guy in the world
Mar 30
11:55 AM
Dean L.
an ironic,if tiny, video
Michael W.
that's small
David W.
My screensaver reeks of sincerity. Really..
Dean L.
are his permalinks tinyurls?
Michael W.
the tiny movement
JoePlotkin
Didnt John Cougar sing about this in the 80s?
Michael W.
he lives in tinytown
David W.
OMG, she's 22 and giving us an Old Fogey moment!
Justin H.
at least they aren't ticky tacky houses
Michael W.
as long as its tiny
JoePlotkin
OMG its the Internets!
David W.
I protest on behalf of all old fogeys everywhere!
David W.
:)
Jeff
Doctors and Lawyers and Internet Executives
Micah S.
show not tell, show not tell, show not tell
Steve S.
let's not forget the tiny that started it all, tinyMUD
Jeff
Intertubes
Chris S.
No, it was somebody else (Joni Mitchell?) who did ticky-tacky. Mellencamp did pink
Michael W.
Micah, chill its coming
JoePlotkin
cue the Randy Newman song
Michael W.
its tiny
Brett G.
It's an itsy bitsy teeny weeny ticky tacky... oh, never mind
David W.
we should be hearing The Voice telling us it's 12:00 very soon...
Erik C.
we're stuck in tiny
Erik C.
Joyce the Voice
Michael W.
soooooo vermont
Harold F.
Stuck in VT? Reminds me of Arrogant Worm's "Ottawa Sucks."
Dean L.
WPTZ?! Putz radio?
Jeff
Carrot Juice is Murder
Michael W.
barista, carpentry, massage therapist, land use lawyer
Harold F.
Whoo hooo! Arrogant Worms rock!!!!
Justin H.
we have problems with too many people coming to South Carolina; we need the anti-this
Jeff
Unwashed Bloggers?
Steve S.
Justin ... "Get out of South Carolina" ?
AKMA A.
"Little Boxes" is a song written by Malvina Reynolds in 1962
Chris S.
ORCAMedia: Great name for a band.
Brett G.
Just do videos of Hilton Head, where you can only paint your house one of two or three colors....
Michael W.
its huge..... but its tiny, too
Benoit F.
has entered the room
David W.
New tagline: "South Carolina: Lovers stay the f*ck home!"
Michael W.
there tiny
Erik C.
tiny tech - it's so small you don't know it's there, but it's there
Mar 30
12:00 PM
fpaynter
RT @writinghannah Last man standing takes all. And by man I mean kitten. And by standing I mean lying down. http://tinyurl.com/ae6fz5
Chris S.
Erik -- I think that's called "biotech..."
JoePlotkin
tiny bits?
Justin H.
"Smiling Faces, Beautiful Places, but they're ours so Stay the Hell Away!"
Steve S.
is tiny smaller than nano?
Glenn S.
This is why rural populations need broadband solutions
Brett G.
Nano
Justin H.
amen Glenn
Michael W.
tiny is its own thing
Jeff
Micro=small, Soft=Not Hard
Chris S.
I hope tiny isn't smaller than nano. OTOH somebody should create "nanoURL"...
Glenn S.
USAID understands the relationship between broadband and economic development and hopefully that message is finally catching here in the USA
Aleecia M.
Pittsburgh could use something like this
Brett G.
We're doing it. This year, so far, we have deployed broadband to an area of Wyoming 5 times the size of Manhattan (with a much smaller population, alas)
AKMA A.
VT has brain magnet
Steve S.
quick Chris, grab the domain ...
JoePlotkin
New slogan: Burlington - not a 2-bit town anymore!
Steve S.
:)
Doc S.
Vermont. It's like New Hampshire, only upside down.
Chris S.
Yeah, but that's Pittsburgh, not Vermont... <g>
Glenn S.
I get paid to help countries understand this relationship yet I have trouble telling that same story in the USA
Andrew F.
Anyone have a video stream link?
Tom V.
Glenn, how is USAID expressing that understanding?
David W.
"Vermont: I've got a pile of resumes"
Jeff
Vermont... It's not that bad!
Chris S.
Steve: I grant it to the commons here...
Erik C.
VT's answer to Hotel California -- come here, do "tiny", and stay forever.
Tony A.
Pittsburgh is almost as cold as VT, but the snow is dirtier.
David W.
"Vermont: Now it's a brand"
saschameinrath
has left the room
Justin H.
Eva really is a treasure to her state
Genny P.
has left the room
Shaun D.
has left the room
Joe G.
has entered the room
JoePlotkin
Vt: high tech AND nice leaves
Glenn S.
USAID expresses it through the support for broadband activities around the world - Senegal, Macedonia, Montengro and many other countries
Aleecia M.
Speaking of needing to market! Pittsburgh is pretty clean, now that the steal industry is dead.dead.dead
Michael W.
typical vermonter
Erik C.
It's the quality of hats ...
David W.
They also want more cheek blush apparently
Stig
youtube link to this video anybody?
Michael W.
like that vermont accent
Aleecia M.
steel, too.
Chris S.
In fairness I like Pittsburgh.
Jeff
Isn't USAID a cover for the CIA?
Harold F.
VT, because you can go to Canada for your drugs.
Glenn S. 
USIAD does not equal CIA
Dean L.
that last woman on the video: a Vermonter with a Southern accent?
Chris S.
ORCA-- only outside the US. here it's a front for the FBI... <g>
Glenn S.
I am not a shill for the CIA
Jeff
All vids here deadbeatdirt.blogspot.com/
Micah S.
Just posted this on the Vermont telecare project: http://techpresident.com/blog-entry/broadb…
Doc S.
Ava, just spell David's name "Eisenberg."
Jeff
It's just what I heard
Dean L.
Doc ++
Chris S.
ORCA: seriously: the CIA plants people in lots of places. But most of the people in those places aren't CIA.
Tom V.
Glenn, do you have any pointers to said USAID activity?
Doc S.
Maybe David gave Ava his missing E.
Andrew F.
i meant the live stream
Harold F.
Damn them!
Andrew F.
eh i'll ask around.
Harold F.
Very cheerful.
Andrew F.
signing off.
Mar 30
12:05 PM
JoePlotkin
Is there a copyleft panel at F2C?
Chris S.
Time for lunch...
fpaynter
CIA is all outsourced these days. Not many spook feds anymore
Glenn S.
AKMA A.
Should be
Brett G.
Gno.
Doc S.
Don't eat right away. Dig these musicians. Really. They're awesome.
Chris S.
fpaynter - Or so they'd like you to believe...
Jeff
Spook feds have all moved to Vermont
David W.
backchannel about to become the stomach channel.
Doc S.
All the lazy spooks just spy on themselves.
Glenn S.
DC is where the spooks live!!
David W.
I'll say it again: the music is PHENOMENAL
fpaynter
doc +
Tom V.
re: optimism regarding virtuous cycles b/w foreign policy and domestic policy... anything is possible I guess, but if there is any "usual" pattern, that's not it
Alex G.
iz
Jeff
Bon appetit
Chris S.
Doc -- would that be onanistic espionage?
AKMA A.
John Jorenson Quintert tops already great history of music at F2c
Tom V.
e.g., aggressive advocacy for (foreign) market openness to new entrants in telecom
Jeff
God helps those who help themselves
David W.
onanastic espionage: One hand DOES know what the other is doing.
Brett G.
Have they ever had Jonathan Coulton?
Nicholas M.
has left the room
JoePlotkin
Spy could go blind that way!
Steve S.
heading to Kefa Cafe http://www.silverspringdowntown.com/go/kefa-cafe after I eat in case anyone wants to join me find me in the hallway
Chris S.
Anyone know of the Coldstone Creamery around here is still open?
Stig
Kefa+ Great off-Ellsworth place!
JoePlotkin
Chris there is a Ben and Jerrys around the corner
Don J.
ChrisS: I saw it when I was walking around last night, the sign, didn't look in the window
Chris S.
Cool
Stig
Just turn right where the astroturf used to be.
Mar 30
12:10 PM
Garret S.
has left the room
Dan A.
has left the room
David I.
has left the room
Ken B.
has left the room
Ron C.
has left the room
Rafael D.
has left the room
DirkvanderWoude
has left the room
Tom V.
I wonder what USTR would say if (foreign market counterpart X) suggested that, in order to enter X's telecom market, all aspiring US entrant Z has to do is build a completely new/parallel but independent telecom facilities platform
Tom V.
...and declare that to be "open and vibrantly competitive" ;-)
Lynn H.
has left the room
Shmuel F.
has left the room
Michael W.
has left the room
Nathaniel J.
has left the room
Joe G.
has left the room
Mar 30
12:15 PM
Alice J.
has entered the room
Erik C.
has left the room
Jen G.
has left the room
shep
has left the room
Andrew F.
has left the room
Harold F.
has left the room
Aleecia M.
has left the room
Dan G.
has left the room
Marvin G.
has left the room
Judi C.
Video and audio broadcast going down for lunch. Will be back in 30 min or so.
Alex G.
has left the room
Casey L.
has left the room
Paul H.
has left the room
Tony A.
has left the room
AKMA A.
has left the room
Jeff
has left the room
Brough T.
has left the room
Justin H.
has left the room
Philip R.
has left the room
fpaynter
@judi do you have a separate audio feed?
Mar 30
12:20 PM
Doc S.
has left the room
iz
has left the room
Steve S.
has left the room
Chris S.
has left the room
Joshua B.
has left the room
Dana S.
has left the room
JoePlotkin
has left the room
Anders F.
has left the room
Micah S.
has left the room
Don J.
has left the room
Greg E.
has left the room
Stig
has left the room
Benoit F.
has left the room
Mar 30
12:25 PM
David B.
has left the room
Nick G.
has left the room
Alice J.
has left the room
Mar 30
12:30 PM
John S.
has left the room
Aymeril H.
has left the room
ruralbroadband
has entered the room
Jean R.
has left the room
Don J.
has entered the room
Mar 30
12:35 PM
ruralbroadband
has left the room
Jim R.
has left the room
Frans-Anton
has left the room
Fred H.
has left the room
Julie W.
has entered the room
Herman W.
has left the room
Mar 30
12:50 PM
Justin H.
has entered the room
Marvin G.
has entered the room
isen
has left the room
The B.
has entered the room
AKMA A.
has entered the room
Mar 30
12:55 PM
The B.
has left the room
The B.
has entered the room
The B.
Hello from the band...
AKMA A.
Hello to the band
The B.
The drummer's mac has a problem. Can anyone help?
Dean L.
talk to me
Dean L.
re the mac
Dirk
has entered the room
Tom V.
I have Roland TD-15s that I sometimes run through my Mac -- but I'm not there so I don't know what the problem is...
Judi C.
and streaming audio and audio/video is back.
Mar 30
1:00 PM
Tom V.
same url for audio/video?
Jeff
has entered the room
JoePlotkin
has entered the room
The B.
Clusterpluk!
Lynn S.
has left the room
Tony A.
has entered the room
Jean R.
has entered the room
Mar 30
1:05 PM
Brett G.
Pluckter... Huh?
Judi C.
yes
Judi C.
same url for audio and video streams
Marvin G.
has left the room
The B.
See you later.....The Band
Joshua B.
has entered the room
Brett G.
...that it's a bad idea?
Michael W.
has entered the room
David W.
I got myself a copy of the John Jorgenson CD - available somewhere in the building..
Nick G.
has entered the room
Glenn S.
Bring it on - What happened to Muniwireless>?
The B.
has left the room
Dirk
Alcatel will be the hardware provider for the next 100,000 subs in Amsterdam. Perhaps Esme will be one of those 100 K ...
Ken D.
Basically the industry collapsed.
Nathaniel J.
has entered the room
Glenn S.
Hey Ken D. was there ever really an industry?
Ken D.
The concept remains but the need for a business model that will work is still up for grabs.
Brett G.
It's not just the incumbents who have observed this. It IS a failure.
Ken D.
I would say yes.
Ken D.
Ah, another expert heard from.
Philip R.
has entered the room
MaryBeth H.
has entered the room
Ken D.
There are several successes.
Ken D.
St Cloud comes to mind.
Ken D.
Minneapolis certainly showed its worth.
Glenn S.
Yes, there are successes, but I am uncertain whether there was an industry that failed
Justin H.
I'll hold my opinion until the post-mortem.
Ken D.
I can name several others, if necessary.
Mar 30
1:10 PM
Paul B.
has left the room
Brett G.
I don't see the Minnesota efforts as successes. They didn't solve any actual problem.
Glenn S.
I think it was a lack of complete understanding of the needs of the people using it
Ken D.
Well, Sky Pilot would like to weigh in on the issue but...
Hilarie C.
has entered the room
Steve S.
has entered the room
Glenn S.
OK
Ken D.
I agree.
Glenn S.
here we go!!
Justin H.
Awesome... I LOVE RAP!
Ken D.
And the associated peripherals that would have sent these networks into success.
Ken D.
WiFi phones that acted like cell phones.
Brett G.
William Blake? "Wi-Fi, Wi-Fi, burning bright...."
Ken D.
Beam forming equipment that could actually be cost justified, to name two
Alex G.
has entered the room
Justin H.
it's all about the microwave
Lynn S.
has entered the room
Brent S.
has entered the room
Ken D.
802.11P would have added to the overall demand as well as off theshelf WiFi meter reading equipment.
Nick G.
blake on fiber - "to see the world in a grain of sand"
David Z.
has entered the room
Stig
has entered the room
AKMA A.
"in a fiber of silicon" -- or wireless, they're synergistic
Brett G.
My own wireless ISP started as a co-op. Guess what? The members prevailed upon me and my wife to take it private, so that there would be capital investment.
Glenn S.
Civitium failed as well so lets not forget their role in this
Brett G.
She is admitting that municipal wireless is unsustainable and must be propped up with tax money....
Ken D.
So how long will it take you to build out to the 135K subscription base?
Bob F.
has entered the room
Mar 30
1:15 PM
Ken D.
I'm not sure failed is the right word, there were no best practices that could be replicated.
Lynn H.
has entered the room
Ken D.
Kind of inventing as we went along.
Brett G.
Ken D.: Was that question directed at me or at the speaker?
Glenn S.
Anchor tenants like schools and health centres are what we used in Macedonia and Montenegro
harold g.
has entered the room
Ken D.
That was directed at you Brett.
Alex G.
I bet that phila changed the equipment providers to the network too
Bob F.
The idea of wireless as public infrastructure if powerful -- even better when coupled with wired infrastructure.
Ken D.
You are a staunched proponent of Wireless (as am I) but you seem to feel that MuniWireless was a dead end.
Brett G.
Ken, we don't have a "135K subscription base." The population of our county is about 30,000.
Ken D.
How do you reconcile that?
Ken D.
I understand that.
David W.
50% in philadelphia only?
Shmuel F.
has entered the room
Geoff D.
has entered the room
Ken D.
How would you go about building out a municipality where your expected subscription rate would hit 135K in a 130 square mile area?
Ron C.
has entered the room
Bob F.
What is the subscription rate for municipal streets?
Brett G.
Actually, 3G is much better than you'll get on a free, public Wi-Fi network once the P2Pers and video streamers get done sucking up all the bandwidth.
Ken D.
St Cloud Florida is now somewhere around 85%, last I heard.
Charles B.
has entered the room
Brett G.
Ken, that wouldn't be hard to do. I'd love to have a chance to get that kind of market penetration.
Ken D.
So you are saying that even with 802.11N you cannot deliver free service or even a low cost unlicensed service for a large scale network?
Casey L.
has entered the room
AKMA A.
"Sucking up bandwidth" = "generating demand for stronger connectivity"
Ken D.
This isn't a design consideration?
David W.
Brett, are you now switching sides in the wireless v cable debate?
iz
has entered the room
Paul H.
has entered the room
shep
has entered the room
Ken D.
I understand that Brett.
iz
she's talking rob poor's dream ember.com
Lawrence K.
has entered the room
Ken D.
and they would supply you all the funding you would need.
Jen G.
has entered the room
Mar 30
1:20 PM
Ken D.
But for some reason we couldn't tie the two disparate ends together.
Brett G.
802.11n is a spectrum hog. What's more, 802.11b clients slow it down to 802.11b speeds. And you haven't even considered the cost of backbone bandwidth....
Brett G.
David W: I don't follow your question.
Bob F.
Esme is describing the Internet dynamic -- once you have an "anchor" application (like email) you discover what else you can do. If you have to build a network for "high value" apps you'll lock yourself into high costs and thus reinforce the idea of scarcity. With a dynamic you keep the cost close to zero and discover new applications which mean more capacity in a virtuous cycle.
Ken D.
Backbone bandwidth prices? When you hit 100K users you should be close to peering.
Brett G.
Ken: Nowhere near it.
Alex G.
we do already have an alternative to the postal system
Ken D.
With businesses?
Ken D.
Really?
Glenn S.
Free doesn't pay the bills however. I am all for free if it pays the bills
Bob F.
The post office does routing very much better than IP does because it has stable addresses adn stable names
Ken D.
Do you have any idea how many huge businesses there are in Philly?
Ken D.
But they get serviced with Fiber.
Ken D.
Wireless is secondary
Bob F.
It's not about "free", it's about functional vs dysfunctional funding m,odels.
Glenn S.
Free IS a model however.
Ken D.
Bob - agreed
Brett G.
Ah, all the "socialist" buzzwords. "Open Source." Bandwidth as some sort of civil right or entitlement. (Gee, shouldn't natural gas or electricity be a civil right too?)
Ken D.
Free is only one small part of a larger set of revenues streams
Glenn S.
Of course it is all about an appropriate business model
Ken D.
AMR.
Brett G.
Free as in beer.
Ken D.
Security.
Bob F.
What does "free" mean -- you mean paid for as infrastructure from general revenue -- that is how we deal with infrastructure that has value as a whole even if individual elements in themselves don't have measurable value
Ken D.
802.11P
Aleecia M.
has entered the room
Brett G.
And a complete detachment from economic reality.
Ken D.
Free also works in the St Cloud model.
Ramon E.
has left the room
Ken D.
Cost avoidance for broadband costs was estimated at $480 per year.
Brett G.
TANSTAAFL
Glenn S.
The free model works when there is advertising, or the anchor tenant can cover the entire costs associated with the services and allows others to use the network
Ken D.
Property taxes averaged $400/year.
Ken D.
Municipality pays for the network and justifies the cost from AMR.
Dan G.
has entered the room
Ken D.
Advertsiing sucks.
Mar 30
1:25 PM
Brett G.
Why prey on an anchor tenant? And why should taxpayers pay for it via taxes, undercutting private enterprise and killing opportunities for job creation and innovation?
Ken D.
It directs the sharks right to the people least able to resist them.
Alex G. 
 
David Simon, writer of "Homicide: Life on the Streets" and "The Wire," and 
former Baltimore Sun reporter, on what is lost when newspapers die (with free bonus tutorial 
on dealing with balky desk sergeants):
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/27/AR2009022703591.html
Ken D.
Because the AMR savings pay for the network and the ongoing costs.
Alex G. 
 
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/27/AR2009022703591.html
iz
someone should tell the speaker to get closer to the mike
iz
the softness is detracting from his speech
Brett G.
Why not contract with a private provider for AMR?
Fred J.
has entered the room
Ken D.
Studies show cost reduction in building inspections, police mobility and other services the community enjoys.
Alex G.
iz: it's the post lunch coma
Joshua B.
about that david simon article, it goes back to what Ellen Miller was talking about re: sunlight
Brett G.
Building inspections?
Alex G.
y
Herman W.
has entered the room
Ken D.
To build out a citywdie network that lays unused the rest of the time when AMR is not being used?
catherine
has entered the room
Joshua B.
but it needs to apply to local governments and it needs to have teeth
Garret S.
has entered the room
Ken D.
Waste of resources
Joshua B.
so you don't have to be a dogged reporter to get the info
Brett G.
Ken, our own network could provide AMR
Ken D.
We ddin't have 100% coverage nor do most WISPs.
Ken D.
Do you have 100% coverage?
Michael W.
has left the room
isen
has entered the room
Stephan
has entered the room
Brett G.
We're approaching 100%. A few more access points and we will be there. Of course, if we had a contract to do AMR, we could cost-justify building out quite a lot if we needed to.
Judi C.
SPEAKERS: Please speak INTO the mic on the podium
Justin H.
Sounds just like GM and America's light rail system
Alex G.
anyone read The Big Switch? I'm reading it now
Glenn S.
I heard this great idea today from Jim Lehrer - he said all newspapers should be advertising free but cut down to 10-16 pages with their pricing doubled. He feels that the death of the newspaper would be slowed down
Brett G.
Sascha is speaking in favor of competition but then advocating municipal networking -- which is anticompetitive.
catherine
Fredericton,NB Canada is another example of a free network. see case study at http://www.CWIRP.org
Bob F.
That's the problem - the FCC maintains a businss model on the naive assumption that it is aligned with public interest. Today it's 180 out of phase becuase it still maintains the idea we need carriers as railraods
Jen G.
Re: taxpayers subsidizing infrastructure and broadband killing innovation/job creation... doesn't mean they don't pay for services they want. Innovative companies will find ways to create things people want. Postal service > Netflix.
Brett G.
See the disconnect?
Mar 30
1:30 PM
Dan A.
has entered the room
David W.
mysterious clapping...what was it in favor of?
John S.
has entered the room
Jen G.
(He leaned into the mic for a sec.)
iz
this panel isn't much of a conversation, it's more of a series of speeches
Dirk
Herman will tomorrow demonstrate what happens when there is no strong incumbent nor a regulsator so people find their own solutions)in Bangla Desh awesomw'
iz
I feel bad for the last guy who'll have 2 minutes
Brett G.
Jen: If you've killed the private providers, people won't be able to buy anything else.
Don J.
I am guessing criticism of FCC
Alex G.
iz: or maybe no Q&A
Erik C.
has entered the room
Brett G.
What's more, muni wireless in particular is a very bad idea because it doesn't just compete unfairly; it also trashes the spectrum, making it impossible for competitors to get on the air.
Aymeril H.
has entered the room
Justin H.
Ditchdiggers are going to get very rich... everyone else meet your new overlords
Ken D.
Then you should approach the utilities, including your local water company, and see if you can put that deal together.
Charles B.
Get rid of the FCC. We don't need it. Waste of time and reinforces the telecom dyanmic.
Justin H.
FCC is supposed to be a voice to monitor the public trust
Erik C.
Regulate markets, not technology. Punt this over to FTC.
Justin H.
they just need to reassess how they perform that role.
Jeff
has left the room
Brett G.
Ironically, there are far more PUBLIC agencies coming to the NTIA and USDA for money than there are private entities. (This is perhaps due to drops in tax revenues.) State governments are asking the NTIA and USDA to give them priority over private businesses in their states or to make them gatekeepers (adding another layer of bureaucracy to the stimulus)
Justin H.
Very GM sounding
Alex G.
we need an actual engineering function at the FCC
Alex G.
as opposed to "well you said BPL would work and they said it doesn't so we'll wait."
Ken D.
Brett, that isn't always the case as in where carrier neutral networks are built.
Brett G.
The FCC has a Chief Technologist again. (Is he there in the room?)
Mar 30
1:35 PM
Ken D.
This allows each "service provider" to focus on service.
David W.
If only there were some sort of mic that gave a speaker local control over its placement.... if only ...
Rafael D.
has entered the room
Dana S.
has entered the room
Doc S.
has entered the room
Andrew F.
has entered the room
Glenn S.
The mike is movable but he keeps moving away from it.
Jeff
has entered the room
Andrew F.
FCC technologist (Jon Peha) is on next panel.
David W.
the mike is movable within a sphere of a fixed radius.
John S.
Good job Sasha! It's great to hear it simply said...
AKMA A.
Or 1337 voice projection skillz
Brett G.
So-called "carrier neutral" networks would be a help if (a) they did not duplicate existing infrastructure and (b) they were really neutral. The fiber deployment in Powell, WY, for example, failed both tests. It overlaid DSL and cable and gave one provider an exclusive. (The developers claimed that they couldn't make it financially viable without doing this.)
David W.
he calls that a gut? hahaha.
Justin H.
Esme picked good people.. huzzah to her
AKMA A.
Wait till he's 50
Brett G.
Depends on the application. ATM is much better than Ethernet/IP for voice.
harold g.
has left the room
Justin H.
in other words "keep it real"
David W.
Is the 2.0 version of the 2.0 meme 3.0 or 4.0?
Charles B.
Why am I being censored? Is this connected repression?
Mar 30
1:40 PM
Brett G.
We did our own research on wireless technologies years ago, and have been augmenting it to this day. That's why we've shunned WiMAX, which is indeed overhyped.
Glenn S.
Strix is one company that lied about their coverage density.
Judi C.
Charles, I don't see that you're being censored. I don't have the technology (nor time) to do so. If you think there's a technical problem, please email me
Glenn S.
This guy just said FREE is not a model either
Brett G.
He's right.
Charles B.
Re: The FCC - a corrupt puppet of Congress. Didn't show up on the thread previously.
Tom V.
has left the room
Stephan
has left the room
Brett G.
You can't solve the problem of using inappropriate technology by throwing more infrastructure at it. Ten times the Wi-Fi nodes will STILL not get into every building.
Andrew F.
Oh come on, FCC is not a puppet of Congress. Under Martin it hardly cooperated with Congress, no matter who chaired the committees.
Justin H.
What about microwave beams? They act like wire, right? That's like saying "we'll always have toasters" yet we have microwave ovens
Lynn H.
live feed down?
Andrew F.
(see House E&C report to Dingell)
iz
not to mention tickets!
saschameinrath
has entered the room
Brett G.
I'm still getting video and audio.
iz
do those help pay for the meters?
Greg E.
has entered the room
Don J.
he mentioned tropos and firetide, what was the third?
Ken D.
Brett - too bad you never got to play with the Go Networks beam forming equipment.
Ken D.
It got into basements.
Aymeril H.
has left the room
Charles B.
Just what we need, a reference to a joint Congressional - FCC confab. Down please.
Brett G.
Alas, Ken, beam forming cannot change the laws of physics. Shannon's Law still applies.
Andrew F.
um...what?
Mar 30
1:45 PM
Andrew F.
it was an investigation of the FCC's operations and management under ex-chairman Martin
Alex G.
did anyone pick up a Radio Shack extension cord?
Ken D.
No but a higher power exemption sure changes the game.
Chris S.
has entered the room
Lawrence K.
Ok.... I'm not trying to throw rocks...but is the parking meter application the most exciting muni application?
Charles B.
Who does the FCC report to?
Andrew F.
the commission was -NOT- a tool of congress during his chairmanship, by any means.
Ken D.
Lawrence K. - No, no it isn't.
Brett G.
An increase in the allowed power changes the game even without beam forming technology.
Ken D.
Look up 802.11p among others.
Andrew F.
Actually, it's an independent regulatory commission subject to congressional oversight
Alex G.
Kevin Martin was the Harriet Miers of the FCC -- his qualification was that he was the lawyer for the Bush/Cheney 2000 camapaign
Ken D.
We have also been talking about AMR (Automated Meter Reading)
Doc S.
Why is wimax slow on the uplink side?
Brett G.
Lawrence: It's exciting when you're racing the meter maid to feed the meter. ;-)
Charles B.
that must be why we have a much stronger duopoly in telecom right now. Martin was carrying the water for K" Street.
Ken D.
But beam forming allows you to up the power without self polluting.
Ken D.
A key point, I'm sure you would agree
Brett G.
Doc: WiMAX is slow on the uplink due to the polling scheme.
Anders F.
has entered the room
Lawrence K.
Brett....ahah....does that mean that as a parking meter USER also have access to the meter data, so that I can race the meter maid?
Casey L.
should be talking smart grid -- not just AMR. AMR is a narrow piece of it.
Brett G.
Ken: Beam forming still self-pollutes.
Ken D.
Less than an omni, for example.
Doc S.
What happens when Sprint, which is putting wimax everywhere, deploys? How about when they do it with a free card and a $30/mo price? (Guessing at that number. Have no idea.)
Ken D.
and yes, everything self-pollutes
Chris S.
Alex: Unfair to Kevin. He worked as a senior staff person for an FCC commissioner for several years after the '96 Act passed. THEN he went to Bush-Cheney -00, then he got on the FCC
Nathaniel J.
has left the room
Rafael D.
has left the room
Andrew F.
Actually Alex
Andrew F.
Martin worked as a legal adviser to Harold Furchtgott-Roth, a Clinton appointee
Brett G.
Lawrence: You already know the meter data if you know when your time will run out, right? Or do you want GPS data on the meter maid?
Tony A.
Parking meters are going away. Pay and display is hugely more profitable for munis and they are converting as fast as they can.
Alex G.
okay Andrew Chris -- but Martin often appeared to follow WH orders --
Alex G.
rather than advice from staff or any consistent rules
Charles B.
A legal advisor? That's a qualification, and perfectly displays the problem.
Mar 30
1:50 PM
Glenn S.
Parking meters going the way of Virgin Mega-Stores
Mar 30
1:50 PM
Justin H.
many munis think otherwise
iz
but freedom of speech is a leftist buzzword, right brett?
Alex G.
At least with Powell we knew what his perspective was -- provided some consistency -- with Martin ISPs have an opponent who was capricious as well as unpleasant.
David W.
Parking meters going the way of virgins and mega-stores?
Andrew F.
Charles: what other qualifications do you suggest
Chris S.
Alex: Don't get me wrong; I'm no fan of Chairman Martin's tenure. I think he did a number of bad things. But it wasn't because he was clueless.
Andrew F.
(agrees with Chris)
Alex G.
It was because W was clueless?
Andrew F.
no, it was because he was a poor manager.
Glenn S.
David W. No, we are moving towards mega-stores so I guess it is the former.
Tony A.
It's a tough balance. In my town they put in the pay-and-display to increase revenue, over the loud objections of the chamber of commerce, who (rightly) felt it was shopper hostile.
Alex G.
he was a great success at burrowing
Brett G.
No, freedom of speech is not a "leftist buzzword."
Judi C.
public service note: A magnitude 4.3 event occurred 18 km (11 miles) N of Morgan Hill, CA.
Chris S.
I think it was because his model was that you can trust America's large successful corporations to find ways to make money while keeping the customer satisfied. Hence what Verizon & AT&T wanted they tended to get.
Aleecia M.
has left the room
Alex G.
. . . and that's not clueless? just asking :-)
Jeff
OK, we've covered the past, what about Julius Genachowski?
Andrew F.
Chris: I think he also still was scarred from the NextWave debacle
Ken D.
It's safe
Justin H.
well, it was a simple solution... if not the best one
Brett G.
In a competitive market, that's actually true. And that's why we need not to regulate but rather to encourage competition.
Alex G.
don't know much about julius yet but we trust Kevin W and Susan to pick someone good
Glenn S.
Judi C - 4.3 doesn't even create a nice rumble.
isen
Julius can't say anything until he is confirmed
Chris S.
Alex: No, that's just being wrong. I reserve "clueless" for another mental state altogether
Brett G.
Regulation, or government competition with the private sector, would kill the competition we need.
JoePlotkin
we need to regulate to ENSURE aand ENFORCE competition
Alex G.
Chris: understood
Justin H.
but that's talking big... I want to build an ISP in my shed
David W.
Structural separation would encourage competition
AKMA A.
Deregulation servbe us so well in the financial sector
Chris S.
Brett, I'm not sure that competition will actually produce the results we want, without some intelligent regulations surrounding it.
Lawrence K.
I was at the Holocaust museum yesterday and they have an exhibit on the use of radio and television in Germany during the rise of the Nazis, and how radio (one-way dissemination) became the way to control the message from the govt, to the population. They even had their own subsidized hardware; the Volksemfanger, (sp? ) the radio version of the Volkswagen.
Brett G.
Joe: Exactly. And this is why the only regulation we should impose should be prohibition of anticompetitive tactics.
Alex G.
bway.net is a censorship-resistant network
Andrew F.
Genachowski has experience in the industry from many angles. He's not exactly another Reed Hundt.
JoePlotkin
Structural Separation, or the more severe Divestiture2
Chris S. 
Brett: OK. So give me a list we all agree on as to what is "anticompetitive..." <g>
Brett G.
Chris: Competition naturally gives consumers what they want, because they will switch if they do not get it.
Mar 30
1:55 PM
JoePlotkin
radio was used to similar effect in Rwandan genocide
Chris S.
Brett: Assumes that people actually rationally choose in their own interest, which is not, as it turns out, supported by the data
Andrew F.
Brett: you are so wrong. we have competition and I still can't get what I want.
Brett G.
Joe: You probably were at CITI's "structural separation" conference last week. Any interesting points to share?
Chris S.
Andrew, we don't need to hear about your personal problems... <g>
Andrew F.
rofl
JoePlotkin
Brett - yes but not easily summerized in this medium
Brett G.
Andrew: I'm tempted to quote a song.... Seriously, if what you want is everything for nothing, no; you won't get what you want. But with competition you'll get the best that's feasible.
JoePlotkin
whats the limit on Rolling Stone references?
Justin H.
this is distracting... will the video be online to view later... that sounds important and I'm thinking about competition issues
Glenn S.
It also happened nationwide in Macedonia and Montenegro
JoePlotkin
Stones
David W.
Hey, you, could into my cloud.
Tony A.
With "competition" in telecom as it exists today, I can't get what I want, but I cant even get what I need.
Andrew F.
i'll pay for what i want
David W.
cold = get
David W.
cold = could
Andrew F.
the Jagger principle does not apply
Glenn S.
but Point to Point leading to WIFI at the end points
David W.
oh forget it
JoePlotkin
get offa my cloud!
Andrew F.
becuse what I want isn't what I need, either.
Charles B.
Andrew, did you see my response?
Tony A.
get off of *my* cloud
Andrew F.
Charles: no, I did not.
Alex G.
whose cloud, tony?
Tony A.
Joe: I type too slowly.
Brett G.
Start me up....
Andrew F.
oooooh...the cloud.....
JoePlotkin
hahaha
AKMA A.
Muni cloud or privately-owned and -operated cloud?
Stig
Dana S.
has left the room
JoePlotkin
Tony, dont have your 19th nervous breakdown . . .
David W.
19th nervous network breakdown, needs Martin's little helper
Steve S.
those clever Italians
iz
ouch
Dirk
Vienna sounds great, but what when Telekom Austria and UPC start to take notice - between them they managed to kill the Vienna FttH project...
Brett G.
They have lots of fallen arches, too.
Alex G.
Dirk: what are the dates on Vienna FttH?
Alex G.
when did it happen?
Charles B.
I repeat, if you actually think the FCC is anything other than a political extension of Congress, and heavily subject to the political influence (corruption) then you need to bone-up a little on the history of the telecosm. Chairman martin, chairman powell, chairman mao, blah, blah: all useless.
Steve S.
dang, what're they doing in Boston, anyone have a link?
Tony A.
Do, da di da da, do da di da Hang Fibre, Hang Fibre
Mar 30
2:00 PM
Alex G.
who was FCC chair at the time of the breakup of AT&T?
Brett G.
The FCC is more a political extension of the White House than of Congress, especially when the same party is in control of both.
Andrew F.
Quello?
David W.
Steve S.
thx David!
Andrew F.
Charles: Influence != corruption. And Martin's relationship w/ Congress was ANYTHING but one where he was controlled.
Steve S.
and in fact to back Dewayne up I remember serveral f2c's where we had connectivity issues
Alex G.
Signal Strength: Excellent -- thanks Dewayne and atlantech
Dirk
some two years ago, Telekom A made a deal with WienStrom to provide the energy to their VDL PON network. Suddenly Wienstroms sister Blizznet was not heard from anymore.
shep
Dewayne means 10 or 15 years ago. 5 years ago it was 2004, and events like this were already using 802.11 like this routinely.
Alex G.
we didn't have 64 Mbps from atlantech in the past
Judi C.
Tony, Talk with Hilarie Gardner from Mendocino. Very wet coastal area. mountains. Big trees. Lots of them. Hang fiber is a best option but hanging.... not so much.
Alex G.
shep -- yes
Brett G.
Dewayne, I'm on via high speed wireless from Wyoming -- with a Netbook up on a shelf displaying the video and my regular laptop doing the chat.
Julie W.
has left the room
Charles B.
Hear that Andrew. The tools make the rules.
isen
shep, yeah but wifi didn't scale in 2004 -- there was not a conf, including F2C that had good w'less
Brett G.
I've advocated the same thing as Dewayne re spectrum allocation and cognitive radio: http://www.brettglass.com/CR/
Judith H.
has entered the room
Aymeril H.
has entered the room
Alex G.
isen: I believe the semiconductor bash was able to put something together, with massive massive bandwidth
Brett G.
The amateur radio services run as an "open commons," but you're not allowed to use more power than you need and you can't interfere with anything else that's licensed
AKMA A.
We've had significant connectivity issues (not Dewayne's fault) in past F2Cs; the spectacular connectivity this year is different
Andrew F.
Ok, I am not going to get into a debate about open commons and spectrum policy. Last one did not go well.
Alex G.
and an astonishing number of cisco APs
isen
hmmm, and we had a network at f2c that ran well some of the time
Geoff D.
has left the room
Brett G.
Part 15 causes as many problems as it solves
David W.
Also known as spectrum de-lay.
Mar 30
2:05 PM
AKMA A.
Was that the Republican congressman? Spectrum DeLay?
Mar 30
2:05 PM
Charles B.
Of course not. Any position you may take is ultimately indefensible in the economic, social or political sphere. As Goethe said Andrew, Know Your Limitations.
Andrew F.
A properly done remaking should NOT take ten years.
Wendy S.
has entered the room
isen
AKMA don't jinx us -- the divine is still a major force in wireless :-)
isen
Notice "dark forces" etc
Andrew F.
we rulemaking
Andrew F.
er
isen
Magic wand etc
Brett G.
"Dark forces?"
AKMA A.
David, I'm on your side. So far, so good.
Andrew F.
a properly done rulemaking should not take ten years.
David W.
I want moooore! Mooooooore!
Stig
Yes, steeples are popularly used as cell towers.
Alex G.
glass-stegall -- another rule we need to remake -- http://isen.com/blog/2009/03/congress-pass…
Andrew F.
but Charles, I'm not sure what position I am taking that is indefensible.
JoePlotkin
Amen, AlexG
Chris S.
Charles, that wasn't Goethe, it was Harry Callahan in the second "Dirty Harry" movie
Brett G.
They even had a patent on a way to monopolize it.
Chris S.
We don't have buckets of money. $7 billion is a pittance as against the scale of the problem
Alex G.
dewayne -- I hear that the net is a pretty good distribution tool for information
Brett G.
Metricom failed for several reasons. One was that they thought that AMR would subsidize the network.
catherine
has left the room
Andrew F.
because I don't want to burn the FCC down to the ground and actually spend a fair amount of my time watching the issues and how it has worked (and not worked) in years past, from positions within the industry and as a journalist covering the industry?
Brett G.
Another was that they couldn't get their costs down.
AKMA A.
"Speaking in tongues" -- and people ask me why I come to this conference....
Chris S.
Metricom didn't declare itself to be a telecommunications provider and therefore had no legal right to be on the power poles that were integral to its survival.
Judi C.
note to remote visitors: Quicktime (NOT RealPlayer) a/v stream: rtsp://odo.warpspeed.com/f2c09.sdp and audio only: Itunes or VLC: http://odo.warpspeed.com:8000/f2c09.mp3
isen
akma lol
Jen G.
They do have buckets of money - buckets! Too bad there's an aquifer to fill. Jedi mind tricks - tech mirage.
David W.
So, what should we learn from Metricom?
Brett G.
Metricom wasn't on power poles; it was on street lights. Important difference.
Justin H.
What a great positive panel
Mar 30
2:10 PM
Alex G.
if you have qs ask them
JoePlotkin
the chattering classes?
Brett G.
I could give a whole lecture on what we could learn from Metricom. Its failure taught me a heckuva lot that made my own business succeed.
Chris S.
Brett: not for these purposes. Owned by power companies, rights of access set by law. Telecom can insist on being there, others can't.
Doc S.
I was a Metricom customer. Still have my Ricochet wireless modem somewhere.
Don J.
I have/had a ricochet radio modem too. I used to velcro it to the back of my notebook
David Y.
I was too. It was pretty cool for its time. And better than the CDPD I had been using before that.
Charles B.
Doc, hold onto that. someday it will be a museum piece.
Alex G.
they will do DSL the moment you start a local network
Brett G.
Chris, two things. Firstly, there are some real questions as to whether WISPs can get mandatory pole attachments. Secondly, street lights -- even if they are attached to power poles, which they may or may not be -- are generally the domain of municipalities.
Justin H.
I'm totally calling Ken tomorrow
Gary A.
has entered the room
Gary A.
Just to set the record straight... One of Metricom's greatest assets is that it actually piggybacked on a broad set of pole rights agreements, which it inherited from a company it had acquired that had utility metering technology. That's how they were able to develop a fairly large footprint.
Chris S.
Brett: I get the issue of pole attachments. In fact, if you need any legal advice about it, call me; it's part of what my firm and I do. ;-) As to street lights v. power poles, depends on your jurisdiction. Around here power companies do them under contract to the municipalities...
Mar 30
2:15 PM
Chris S.
Gary: Yes. But then there was pushback when they wanted to expand.
Brett G.
So, the speaker is suggesting that the municipality should be deceptive, and claim that the network which is going to compete with private enterprise is "just for meter reading?"